5. Hellen Keller and the Kid Raised by Wolves

Olivia walks Zach and Victor through a visual imagination exercise that sparks a discussion about the dreams of people with…...

Olivia walks Zach and Victor through a visual imagination exercise that sparks a discussion about the dreams of people with sensory impairment, and an interpretation of Hellen Keller’s dream. A listener dreams of a decadent dessert shaped like a dress for a doll. Sign Guy returns to the show, this time in Olivia’s dream… and he's got a buttload of tadpoles.

0:00 Intro

1:54 Visual Imagination Exercise

23:10 Listener dream

53:25 Olivia's dream

About Dream Bible:

Dream Bible is a free online A to Z dream dictionary dedicated to helping people understand the meaning of their dreams. Unlike other dream interpretation websites or books we extensively research dream symbols by interviewing people about the events occurring in their lives at the time of their dreams.  Inspired by the work of Gillian Holloway Ph.D, we are using a database of over 350,000 dream reports to create the world's most practical dream dictionary based on the waking life experiences of regular people.


Dream Bible entries used in this episode:

Wolves: https://www.dreambible.com/search.php?q=wolves

Stairs: https://www.dreambible.com/search.php?q=stairs

Ladders: https://www.dreambible.com/search.php?q=ladder

Crabs: https://www.dreambible.com/search.php?q=Crabs

Grim Reaper: https://www.dreambible.com/search.php?q=grim+reaper

Dress: https://www.dreambible.com/search.php?q=Dress

Episode Transcript


Olivia: welcome to The Jung and the Restless. I'm Olivia.

Victor: I'm Victor.

Zach: And I'm Zach. And this is the podcast where 7 ate 9, and now nine doesn't exist anymore. Good luck without nine.

Intro Music

[00:00:35] Zach: How do you think you searched for that on Indeed?

[00:00:38] Olivia: I think it was a Craigslist thing.

[00:00:40] Zach: Oh shit. I haven't looked at Craigslist in a long time. I thought that was. I guess, I don't know what I thought that was for anymore.

[00:00:47] Olivia: Yeah.

[00:00:48] Victor: There's weirder stuff on there. Yeah. You'll get like a guy that needs you to do a thing, 

[00:00:52] Olivia: yeah.

[00:00:53] Zach: Last time I looked at jobs on Craigslist, I remember seeing a lot of dudes that need a cleaning lady to live with them

[00:00:59] Olivia: [00:01:00] Yes. 

[00:01:00] Zach: be attractive. 

[00:01:02] Olivia: Yeah. You'll, you'll also see, like in housing, it'll be like free housing must be young, hot,

[00:01:09] Zach: Uh,

[00:01:10] Olivia: It's very gross.

[00:01:12] Zach: the, for a while there, Craigslist was like,

well, it was good for a lot of things. Like I, I did find apartments and jobs

and stuff, and then that start sort of, I feel like the last thing to go away was bands. There was like the musician community was like the last holdout, like it was the last thing that I used Craigslist for was finding other musicians, and last time I checked that I didn't see, I don't know where musicians are

[00:01:37] Victor: Musicians


[00:01:37] Zach: congregating online now.

[00:01:39] Olivia: musicians meet.com,

[00:01:42] Zach: No, it doesn't. You think so? I didn't have 

[00:01:45] Victor: Christian mingle.com,

[00:01:47] Zach: Oh wait, you made that up.

[00:01:48] Olivia: musicians mingle.com

[00:01:50] Zach: farmers only.

Visual Imagination Exercise

[00:01:54] Olivia: We were talking

recently about like visual imagination versus like auditory imagination [00:02:00] and like your mind's eye and like how strong that 

[00:02:03] Victor: is. 

[00:02:04] Olivia: And I was thinking about how it might be related.

[00:02:06] Victor: to,

[00:02:07] Olivia: one's 

tendency to dream vividly or

[00:02:11] Zach: Yeah, that's an interesting question.

[00:02:13] Olivia:

have like a little exercise that we could run through if you wanna do it.

It's kind of, maybe might be kind of fun for you and the listeners, you guys,

[00:02:21] Victor: guys

[00:02:21] Zach: Yeah. Cause I think, I think I have a pretty strong, I found out recently that a buddy of mine has zero minds eye. Like he can't, 

[00:02:29] Victor: Right. Sounds like it's just a thing.

[00:02:31] Olivia: I think it's, yeah.

I think it's just a thing that you, Like some people I know think and like mostly words and I definitely have like an internal monologue, but my mind is very, very visual.

[00:02:43] Zach: Yeah, me too. I have a friend that is really easy to make her laugh and I didn't, I just thought she was an easy laugh for years. And then I found out that she has a super vivid visual imagination. So if you say something stupid, she like

[00:02:56] Victor: like

[00:02:57] Zach: can picture 


And it.

[00:03:00] is apparently also a very funny mind's eye.

But yeah. What's this, uh,

[00:03:05] Olivia: Okay. Yeah, no. So I've got like a little, yeah, a little exercise. So, , listeners, you guys can, play along with this if you'd like. So if you're comfortable, go ahead and close your eyes. And

[00:03:20] Zach: Not if 

[00:03:21] Olivia: you Yeah, if you're not, if you're driving, please uh, pull over or do this 

[00:03:26] Victor: later. 

[00:03:27] Olivia: okay. So close your eyes


picture a ball on 

[00:03:33] Victor: table, 

[00:03:37] Olivia: and then picture a person. Coming up to the table and pushing 

the ball 

and the ball rolling off the table. 

[00:03:50] Victor: Okay. 

[00:03:52] Olivia: You can open 

[00:03:52] Victor: your 


[00:03:54] Olivia: now. I'm gonna ask you a series of questions. Um, and if you can [00:04:00] just, um, answer right off the bat. If there's no answer, don't 

[00:04:03] Victor: answer.

[00:04:06] Zach: Victor and I are both doing this

[00:04:07] Victor: I think, why don't you do it and I'll listen 

[00:04:10] Olivia: quietly.

Okay. You can do it in 

[00:04:12] Victor: your 



[00:04:13] Olivia: Okay.

[00:04:15] Zach: then re, 

[00:04:15] Olivia: color 


[00:04:15] Victor: the 

[00:04:17] Zach: it was a rubber band ball, so beige.

[00:04:21] Olivia: All right. What shape was 

[00:04:23] Victor: the 


[00:04:25] Zach: It was just like a simple, like Ikea sort of pine, four-legged square. It was square.

[00:04:32] Olivia: Was the person, a man 

[00:04:34] Victor: or 



[00:04:35] Zach: The person was Victor

I think, just cuz I'm looking at him. But you But you were wearing a flannel for some reason. I think his, my eyes

were clo, my eyes were closed and I couldn't remember what you were wearing.

[00:04:45] Victor: That

[00:04:46] Olivia: my next question was what did they look like? So Victor and a flannel. 

[00:04:50] Victor: Okay.

[00:04:51] Zach: Red flannel. But I don't, I don't know. Also cuz I knew what this game was about. I don't know if I was trying to like be more vivid or not. [00:05:00] You know what I mean?

[00:05:00] Victor: this game, Yeah. 

[00:05:01] Olivia: Maybe, maybe not though. 



you, But that's the thing is you weren't deciding 

[00:05:07] Victor: to, 

[00:05:08] Olivia: to make it a rubber band ball. You saw a rubber band ball. 

[00:05:11] Victor: Correct.

[00:05:11] Zach: Yeah.

[00:05:12] Olivia: Cause like it's not a matter of like how, like your choices as much as like what you actually were able to see 


[00:05:19] Victor: your head.

I will say I got a lot less detail in my mind's eye.

[00:05:25] Olivia: Yeah. What



[00:05:25] Victor: answers?

So, uh, when you asked the color question, I think I filled in the color as you were asking mm-hmm. . Um, and I think same with gender. I think that I must have been like filling in that information as the questions 




So it sounds like you two are very visual brained people.

And I'm definitely like primarily a verbal brained person. And then I can do like, picturing stuff in my brain. I'm not, it's not like I can't do it, but it is like shakier less vivid, you know? And like I, it takes intentional [00:06:00] effort to like hold an image in my brain and it's not like hyper detailed 

[00:06:03] Olivia: or 



[00:06:05] Zach: Yeah. And there was no, if, if the questions went into like, Where was the table? I wouldn't have an, an, It was like a nebulous white space,

[00:06:14] Victor: Yeah.

[00:06:15] Zach: you know what I mean? I didn't picture any, I couldn't, It's not like photographic, you know what I mean?

[00:06:20] Olivia: I think when I, when I did this yesterday, cuz I saw this in a TikTok. I did not make this up. It was not an original, Sorry guys. Um, but when I did this, I pictured the table. It was in a room, but it was like kind of up there was like a wall behind it. So it wasn't like a, you know, anything vivid. But I, I did put it in a space

[00:06:42] Zach: I was looking down at it so that I wouldn't see any walls or floor.

[00:06:48] Victor: Hmm.

[00:06:48] Zach: And also when Vic,

when when Victor knocked the ball at the table, he did it like a 

[00:06:52] Victor: like 

[00:06:53] Zach: like this. And also because he said table, you said picture a ball. [00:07:00] And I just pictured a circle and you said on a table, and that's when it became a rubber band ball. I think if you had said on the ground, it could have become like a soccer ball or a basketball or something.

[00:07:09] Olivia: But it's interesting that it was a rubber band ball for you. Mine 

[00:07:11] Victor: was 


[00:07:12] Olivia: red.

[00:07:13] Zach: that felt like the kinda ball that 

[00:07:14] Olivia: of like a pool ta. 

[00:07:15] Victor: Like a 

pool ball.

[00:07:17] Zach: Oh, okay. 

Yeah, I think my brain tries to put things in contact, so it's like, oh, well that's the kind of ball that would be on a table. There's a rubber van ball,

[00:07:25] Victor: Oh, 


[00:07:26] Olivia: interesting. 

But yeah, I was just 

[00:07:28] Victor: thinking 

about like 

[00:07:30] Olivia: how that might play into the vividness of a dream, right? Like 

if you're, 

You're able, cuz you're, when you're dreaming, you are using your mind's eye. Um, and I wonder if some people don't, cuz some people don't remember their dreams. I wonder if their dreams are different or their dreams are not 


[00:07:50] Victor: you know?

[00:07:51] Zach: Yeah. 

Yeah. I, when I ask my buddy who has no visual imagination, 

If he 

[00:07:56] Victor: dreams.

[00:07:57] Zach: your how he dreams, 

I'm [00:08:00] sure he must dream.

[00:08:02] Victor: He's like blind in his dreams. It's just like darkness and 

[00:08:05] Olivia: then 


[00:08:07] Zach: Yeah. Cuz blind people still have dreams. Like even if they're born blind and they don't know what anything looks like, they'll have dreams.

[00:08:13] Victor: Are 

they visual?

[00:08:14] Zach: I don't think so. I think they're, I think if, if they were blind, became blind, they can have visual dreams. Correct me if I'm right in 

If you're, if you're, if you're blind right.

In, um, what's our email?

[00:08:27] Olivia: the young and the restless pod. At Gmail,

[00:08:32] Zach: I'm pretty sure people who are blind their entire lives still have dreams. It's just the similar to their.

[00:08:37] Victor: to this.

[00:08:37] Zach: Daily experience.

[00:08:39] Olivia: I would really 


to hear 

from some blind dreamers. That would be very 

[00:08:44] Victor: interesting.

[00:08:45] Zach: Yeah, I know, cuz I met a few deaf people. I know they definitely dream, but it's just, I mean, that makes sense, , it's just, it's just, there's just no audio. Um, although I wonder if,

[00:08:57] Olivia: That's kind of the same question though.

[00:08:59] Zach: if they [00:09:00] weren't born


[00:09:01] Victor: experienced 

[00:09:02] Olivia: or can you do it if you, Yeah, if you 

[00:09:05] Zach: Yeah. But you're, you're not actually hearing anything. It's in between your ears. 

[00:09:10] Victor: your brain's always working with what it has available though. Right? So it's like you wouldn't, like your example of if you weren't always blind but became blind, you still have the experiences and memories and parts of your brain that can connect to visual processing. Right? But if you don't have that, Your brain doesn't have 

[00:09:29] Olivia: anything 




I'd like to know what Helen Keller 

[00:09:32] Victor: dreamed 


[00:09:33] Olivia: Huh?

[00:09:34] Victor: Hmm.

[00:09:34] Zach: Yeah, we should ask 


[00:09:37] Olivia: Like sensations. I don't know. You know, like, because 



[00:09:40] Victor: if 

you're death, you 


[00:09:43] Olivia: would have 

like visual heavy 



But like, if you think about it 


like the auditory part of my imagination and like my, my internal world, like I can, I can hear things in my head [00:10:00] to the same extent that I can see 

[00:10:02] Victor: them.



[00:10:03] Zach: Yeah. Neither are as vivid as a dream

[00:10:06] Victor: I pulled up, uh, I was looking for Helen Keller Dreams and there's a quote from her autobiography where she talks about dreaming. So I wanna read that to you guys really quick. so before her teacher first came to her, Helen Keller and her autobiography stated, My dreams have strangely changed during the past 12 years before and after my teacher first came to me.

They were devoid of sound of thought or emotion of any kind except fear, and only came in the form of sensations. I would often dream that I ran into a still dark room, and that while I stood there, I felt something fall heavily without any noise causing the floor to shake up and down violently. And each time I woke up with a jump, as I learned more and more about the objects around me, this strange dream ceased to haunt me.

But I was in a high state of excitement and received impressions [00:11:00] very easily. It is not strange then that I dreamed at the time of a wolf, which seemed to rush towards me and put his cruel teeth deep into my body. I could not speak. The fact was, I could only spell with my fingers. And I tried to scream, but no sound escape from my lips.

It is very likely that I had heard the story of Red Riding Hood and was deeply impressed by it. This dream, however, passed away in time and I began to dream of objects outside myself.

[00:11:30] Olivia: Do we wanna interpret Helen 

[00:11:32] Victor: Keller's 


 Sure, let's 

[00:11:35] Zach: I could try it 

[00:11:37] Olivia: There's, um, there's a, i, I had a dream about being bitten by a wolf, so there's like a long, I know there's a long dream Bible 


[00:11:43] Victor: about


[00:11:44] Zach: Oh, I'm sure.

[00:11:45] Victor: but I will say, so like, if we think about, so like Helen Keller. I'm probably fuzzy on the story, but it's like she had, uh, she couldn't hear or 

[00:11:56] Olivia: see, 



But it sounds like she lost her [00:12:00] vision because it sounds like her, she was seeing 

[00:12:02] Victor: in 




[00:12:03] Olivia: Or

[00:12:04] Zach: That is a gap in my grade school education.

[00:12:08] Olivia: Right.

I'm gonna need to 

[00:12:09] Victor: look that 


[00:12:11] Zach: I remember feeling like other, other kids did a whole unit on Helen Keller and for some reason I was not in that class.

[00:12:17] Olivia: Although born with sight and hearing, Helen was rendered blind and deaf by an illness at 

[00:12:23] Victor: 19 months 



Okay. Okay.

[00:12:26] Olivia: Okay.

[00:12:26] Zach: you might as well be your entire life.

[00:12:30] Victor: So, um, there's part of the idea of dream interpretation, right? And like the whole young Ian idea is that we have like a shared, you can call it a shared consciousness, but also like a shared like, uh, understanding of symbolism. Mm-hmm. , like that there's a subconscious connection between, uh, symbols and their meanings that are shared between people.

It's not each individual person. Mm-hmm. has totally personalized symbolism that's only relevant to them. [00:13:00] We share symbolism, right? Because we exist in like a 

shared culture. Mm-hmm.

right? So for someone like Helen Keller who was excluded from that, that cultural experience, she didn't have 



Mm-hmm. , uh, similar to like how would the, uh, like the kid raised by wolves or whatever, Right. And it's like they don't have the cultural context to absorb the. Shared subconscious meaning of things. Right, so it's just, it's in, it's interesting.

It's like, would dream interpretation even apply to somebody like that, that didn't ex, that didn't like grow up in like a shared, uh, cultural experience with 

[00:13:41] Olivia: with everybody 


I think it would be interesting to look at it. Um, but can I say just one thing that's really interesting in this dream to me is in the first sentence that she says, I would often dream that I ran into a still dark room. 

[00:13:56] Victor: And it's 


[00:13:57] Olivia: what is darkness to someone who [00:14:00] can't see? Right. I I guess there's, is there like light sensitivity 

[00:14:04] Victor: maybe? 

[00:14:05] Olivia: I

[00:14:05] Victor: don't know.

[00:14:06] Zach: I don't know, maybe it was intellectually, you know, like she knew it was dark, even if

[00:14:12] Olivia: Yeah.

[00:14:13] Zach: can't see it.

[00:14:14] Victor: Yeah,


Cuz it sounds like what she's saying is, before she had an understanding of a world outside of herself, what caused her fear is when she felt like a heavy thud. She got the physical sensation of a heavy thud near her. And that was frightening to her because it meant something could hit her or affect her and she didn't know what 

[00:14:36] Olivia: it 


was. Right. Or I wonder if like, concepts like light and darkness. Cause what I'm seeing here, 


just Googling things just so that we know. Helen Keller never remembered seeing 

a sliver 

of light. 

She never 



anything either. 


like, I wonder if the concepts of light and dark 


associated with other sensations, like maybe like warmth, you know, [00:15:00] and, and, or the lack of warmth or something else.

You know, maybe you can kind of feel it in a different way or maybe you can feel lightness and 


I, I don't know, like maybe your body learns to feel things in a different way

[00:15:15] Victor: or even if she didn't consciously remember that experience because she did have sight for the first year and a half of her life, she did, she'd retained some concept of light and dark subconsciously, even if it wasn't in her 

[00:15:29] Olivia: conscious 



[00:15:31] Victor: That's 



It is. But so the first thing she remembers dreaming about when be, when she began to understand more about the things outside of herself. Right. Was 

[00:15:41] Olivia: the wolf 

[00:15:42] Victor: right? Oh, the wolf, 


And that she thinks that's connected to the, uh, Little Red Riding Hood story.

[00:15:47] Zach: You know, go, going back to

your question about somebody, somebody who was like isolated from

[00:15:51] Victor: like isolated

[00:15:53] Zach: the cultural experience. I mean, she still had that, that, 

[00:15:55] Victor: I mean, 


[00:15:56] Olivia: experience 

[00:15:56] Zach: universal story fairytale,[00:16:00] 

[00:16:00] Olivia: yeah.

just, well, like I imagine like before that 

[00:16:02] Victor: there 



[00:16:04] Olivia: that she was very alone. Um, and not nobody was able to communicate, you know, a story to 


[00:16:12] Zach: Mm-hmm. 

[00:16:13] Olivia: and 


if that was maybe the 


story she

was able to retain or one of the first ones, I'm sure that was very 


The first, 

that is the first 

[00:16:23] Victor: symbolism, 


Right. Yeah. Because up until then, like probably her only experience of um, you know, fear would be like she said, something running into you falling near you, tripping you something, some new obstruction. Right? And it's just the physical sensation of a, a change in your environment, right?

And it's like her brain was trying to generate a nightmare that it didn't have anything to work with. And then she's given the concept in the story of this is the external thing to fear. This is the beast. This is the thing that [00:17:00] could be thudding next to you. And so that becomes 



her dream.

[00:17:03] Olivia: Mm-hmm.


[00:17:05] Zach: Which is, It's 

interesting like, like I wonder what a wolf looks like in her mind. You know what I mean? Cuz she's never seen, never seen one,

[00:17:13] Olivia: Well, let's hear the dream Bible 

entry for 

[00:17:16] Victor: wolves

to dream of a wolf represents an aspect of your personality that is on their own. It may reflect an area of your life where you feel alone or like you have to do something all by yourself negatively. A wolf represents issues that threaten you, make you feel vulnerable, or make you da, make you feel dangerously alone.

Fearing that a problem will not go away, so it goes on. But I think that pretty well 


up. Yeah. 

[00:17:46] Olivia: I

think there's also an, if you scroll down, I remember reading before there was something about a 

[00:17:51] Victor: wolf 



[00:17:53] Olivia: or I 


[00:17:54] Victor: be 


[00:17:55] Olivia: but,

[00:17:56] Victor: Hmm. People with serious physical injuries or medical issues [00:18:00] that won't go away often.

Dream of wolves 

[00:18:02] Olivia: attacking 


There you go. 

[00:18:04] Victor: There's 


[00:18:07] Zach: Oh,

[00:18:08] Victor: Wow. 

[00:18:09] Zach: so yeah, that one almost reads like the person who wrote the Dream Bible was working backwards from Helen Keller's Dream.

[00:18:15] Olivia: Yeah, It is 

[00:18:20] Victor: interesting 

though, like I, I, I don't know that I really believed in dream interpretation until we started doing this. Um, and I started reading from the Dream Bible as a joke, and I've kind of come around to feeling like there's 

[00:18:33] Olivia: really something there. Mm-hmm. . 

[00:18:34] Victor: Mm-hmm. .And, um, so it raises a lot of questions, right?

Like how much.

[00:18:39] Olivia: does,

[00:18:40] Victor: Like your cultural experience effect, like the relevance of these entries, right? Like this is, this is an English website. We all have like a western, like American English rooted like history. Does it change radically if you like, go to a different part of the world with like a different, [00:19:00] uh, cul cultural background and a different narrative?

Does the symbolism shift significantly or is a lot of this like truly fundamental to the human experience? And it doesn't really matter where you are. Like a, a wolf will always mean a wolf to you on like a primal 


[00:19:17] Olivia: Mm-hmm.

[00:19:19] Zach: Yeah, that's the word I was gonna use. I bet a lot of it shifts, but certain, certain things are like just human and like, like you said, primal and, and there's kind of not a lot of ways to interpret a real wolf, you know? You know what I mean? Like no matter who you are, where you're from, a wolf is a

[00:19:37] Victor: from,

[00:19:37] Zach: dangerous predator. You know that that tends to hunt alone, or do they hunt in packs? You always hear the phrase lone wolf, and that entry talks about being alone. But

[00:19:48] Olivia: I think they do hunt and packs, but I imagine there's something to 

[00:19:51] Victor: the 

low wolf. 

[00:19:53] Zach: yeah, I guess that's what that expression means, right? Is that it's like a maverick. 

[00:19:58] Victor: yeah.

[00:19:59] Zach: not like [00:20:00] other wolves because it hunts alone,

[00:20:01] Victor: Not


other There's a lot of like wolf lore though. That was just like bad science. I don't know about the lone wolf thing, but I know like the, the whole like alpha, beta concept came 


observing wolves. Mm-hmm. and thinking, oh, there's this big wolf that seems to be in charge of the smaller wolves and gets like first dibs on meals.

That must be the alpha and in charge. And we took that and like applied that to human interactions. And then they learned later that they were misinterpreting the relationship and it was actually a family relationship. And it was, uh, like the, the father patriarch wolf or whatever, was the largest wolf that seemed to be in charge.

And they were, they were like projecting this hierarchy onto, uh, like 

[00:20:45] Olivia:



Yeah. The, what I remember seeing was like if I saw like an aerial photo of a pack of wolves and they travel in like, kind of like a 


and, people assumed that the wolf at [00:21:00] the front of the pack that was leading was the alpha 


um, or like the head of the pack or 


but that's not the case. The leader of the pack is, is at the back and they, I guess they put like more vulnerable wolves at the front 

[00:21:15] Victor: right.

 If something happens at the back, you know, there's less preparedness.

 Maybe the wolves in front of you take a little longer to notice it. But if something comes from the front, all of you are aware, you know,

[00:21:26] Zach: Yeah, if you're the strongest one, you'd think you'd want to have everybody else in front of you so you can.

[00:21:32] Victor: Where 


can see 'em '


You're like, it's like a, it's like a parent, you know, keeping 

[00:21:35] Olivia: an 



their kids. 

[00:21:37] Victor: Yeah.

[00:21:37] Zach: Yeah. So it is less about Alpha Beta and more about group survival

[00:21:42] Victor: Yeah.

Yeah. Like basic mammal nurturing.

[00:21:45] Zach: Yeah. That has gotten as far as it's been applied to humans, especially on the internet, way outta control

[00:21:53] Victor: I mean, I'm a Sigma male, so I don't really think about this stuff a lot.[00:22:00] 

[00:22:00] Zach: I'm Delta. I don't, I don't even, I've heard that Sigma mail, I don't even know what that means.

[00:22:06] Victor: I

don't either. I, I've 

[00:22:07] Olivia: seen stuff 


it. Oh, we went down that rabbit hole. It was so 


They have 

[00:22:12] Victor: a theme 


[00:22:14] Zach: uh, 

[00:22:17] Olivia: you 

[00:22:17] Victor: remember 


[00:22:18] Zach: song like a 

[00:22:18] Olivia: They clearly, I barely 


the Sigma Males have 

[00:22:22] Victor: theme 


[00:22:23] Zach: if I knew what a Sigma Mill is, I 

would make a 

joke here, 


But what their theme song would be. But I don't like the 



[00:22:31] Olivia:

[00:22:32] Victor: I think the idea was like, um, of a Sigma male is that, uh, you, you know, the alpha, beta dichotomy, right? So the idea of the Sigma male was kind of like a lone wolf. Like, Oh, I exist outside of that hierarchy. I don't need to boss people around like an alpha, but I'm also not going to be submissive to the will of alphas.

Like a beta would be. It's very, um, you know, [00:23:00] if that does something for you, you know, good for you, you know, No judgment. Like if that's a thing that resonates with you and it makes your life easier, 

[00:23:08] Olivia: Cool.

[00:23:09] Victor: I'm 



Shelby Dream

[00:23:10] Olivia: you 

[00:23:30] Zach: So this is my friend Shelby's Dream. I have it written out here, so I'll just read that. Here we go. To preface this dream, I mentioned in the end of the dream that I thought that something in the dream looks like a dress for Santa Morte,

[00:23:44] Victor: Moore, which 

[00:23:45] Zach: is the deity that I am devoted to. Santa Morte is holy Death, like a Mexican folk saint, part of some of their Catholic beliefs, but also very much a figure in

Brer, which is kind of like a Latin [00:24:00] witchcraft.

[00:24:01] Zach: My mom lives in this weird, almost biblical times looking apartment set up where you have to climb these awful rickety hanging ladders to get there. What was weird about this was that in the dream, I could remember the ladder being stairs at one time and remembered walking up them many times with my ex-wife, Megan.

They had been wooden stairs in my memory, made of the same material as ladders, but now they were ladders. And so I asked my mom, Mom, where did you, Why? When did you change the stairs? And she acted like I was crazy and said that she didn't. She said they had always been ladders and brushed me off. The reason I was going upstairs with my mom in her apartment in the first place was to have dinner with her and a new person in town whom my mom had invited over for dinner.

 My mom had told me, this woman. Had told me about this woman before she arrived, and this was again, a memory in the dream and not something that actually occurred in the dream itself. She had told me that the woman was a very young mother to one son younger than me even, but that she dressed and presented and even physically looks much older.

I found this to be mostly true When I met her. She was [00:25:00] dressed very simply in a black kind of cloak like dress, and looked very thin and pale, almost sickly with very light blonde hair, which aged her just by virtue of not looking healthy. Her and my mom were chatting in my mom's apartment, which was kind of open to the elements without a real door so I could hear them from where I was dragging behind on the ladder, afraid of falling across from each ladder, there was a small cutout in the outer wall of the building next to the entrance of each apartment, uh, that I presumed were like places to put decorations for whoever's apartment they were next to.

I remember, I remember being super freaked out. The client passed one. They had two live crabs in it. Huge, really kind of rusty, red looking crabs because I thought they would pinch me by the time I got to my mom's apartment, which was duly, duly dusty and basically made of dirt. And again, very bible times looking, I had heard most of the conversations between my mom and this newcomer about an exorcism that she had been performing on her son earlier this week, which I was uncomfortable hearing about [00:26:00] for dinner.

My mom was serving some weird shit, but nothing really comes to mind. I just remember thinking it was all very weird. The woman who was a guest had brought something for all of us to eat together. Uh, it was a very large doll dress. It was dark blue and green and looked like a fucking dress for a doll. I was sitting there thinking, That looks like a Santa Morte dress, and I bet this lady has no idea. 

I had picked up on the fact that she was very Christian, but of, uh, chorus. My other thought was, How the fuck are we gonna eat a dress?

My mom cut through it with a large kitchen knife into three pieces, One for each of us, and it wasn't like cutting fabric, but more like cutting, maybe baklava or something like that.

So I figured it wasn't a real dress after all, just a dessert that looks like one and was super convincing, and that's where the dream ends. Also, I guess you can keep in mind that my mom is super conservative, evangelical Christian, and I'm sure that it's involved somewhere in all the religious over and undertones.

[00:26:56] Victor: that's 



[00:26:57] Olivia: Yeah, 

I, I wrote down some, [00:27:00] um, 

[00:27:00] Victor: symbols 


we might 



[00:27:02] Olivia: up 


[00:27:03] Zach: Yeah. ladders 

[00:27:04] Olivia: and stares , they used to be stairs, but they were now ladders, 

[00:27:08] Victor: But it's also important, the mom was emphatic that they were never ladders, they were always stairs.

So, um, the dreamer remembered and asked the mom about it. And the mom said, You're crazy. They were never, they 

were never stairs. They were never stairs. Okay. Yes.

[00:27:24] Zach: Yeah. That's definitely 

[00:27:25] Victor: That's definitely important.

[00:27:26] Olivia: Um, 

[00:27:28] Victor: gaslight in 

[00:27:29] Zach: with Shelby that came up about how that might, reality. 

[00:27:35] Olivia: the Santa Warte figure is really interesting and I, I, I doubt that that is in the dream Bible, but I wonder if there's like a stand in

I'm looking at the, a picture of Santa Marte and she's holding something that looks like, 

[00:27:52] Victor: kind 


[00:27:52] Olivia: the, 

the thing the grim reaper holds the re Is that the reaper? 

[00:27:59] Zach: Uh, yeah. [00:28:00] Uh, 

[00:28:00] Victor: I'm would

[00:28:01] Olivia: If grim - a scythe right. If 

[00:28:03] Victor:



[00:28:03] Olivia: feel like that's,

I mean 

we should loosely, 

if we're gonna look at that, we should like, take into consideration any like, cultural context that are gonna, 



this, but 

it's maybe like a death deity figure that we can 

take some 

inspiration from.


And then I wonder if there's something about eating 

[00:28:23] Victor: non-food.

[00:28:25] Zach: Yeah. I wonder if she has seen

[00:28:27] Victor: if she 

[00:28:28] Zach: show about is it cake or not? 


know what I'm 

[00:28:31] Victor: or not .Mm-hmm.

It's a 

good, Showed all 




[00:28:34] Zach: Yeah. I wonder if that leaked into her 


[00:28:37] Olivia:

would maybe also look up dress cuz knowing dream Bible, it might just be like if you 

[00:28:42] Victor: dream 

of eating 

dress. , 


[00:28:45] Zach: you dream of a dress that is bava 

with goly eyes,

[00:28:51] Victor: There's a lot of different colors for dresses.

[00:28:54] Zach: She said it was, 


[00:28:56] Victor: just like blue. Right? 

[00:28:57] Zach: Yeah. 

Dark blue. 

[00:28:59] Victor: But it [00:29:00] sounded like it looked like, um, a dress connected to that da. Right. So that might be where the symbolism is more 





[00:29:08] Zach: Yeah. She also said it, it looked like a 

dress for a doll.

[00:29:12] Victor: All right, so we got a big old list of dream Bible entries. Where should we start? Start at the start at the 

beginning. Yeah. Okay. 

[00:29:19] Olivia: Stairs and 


[00:29:21] Victor: So stairs to dream of stairs represents slow or incremental progress in a situation. It may also reflect an increase or decrease if your confidence, I think they mean of your confidence, awareness or intelligence making progress in some way. We get going upstairs, going downstairs. 

So stairs are slow. Incremental progress. Let's just start there. Moving over to ladders to dream of a ladder represents a higher degree of responsibility or positive behavior than is normal for you going out of your way and to be smarter, cleaner, nicer, or proper than you usually [00:30:00] do.

A situation that makes you have to think more maturely or on a higher level. A ladder may be a sign that you can't go about a problem with your same old ways or your same low standards you usually do

[00:30:12] Olivia: negatively.

[00:30:13] Victor: A ladder may reflect arrogant attempts to bypass someone else's wishes by doing something too big or too different for them to stop only accepting newer responsibility or professional ideas once you are embarrassed or unable to control someone looking around for a more sophisticated, dishonest idea when your current dishonest plans aren't working.

[00:30:35] Zach: That's all very interesting cuz a little context on 

Shelby here. she's like 29 I think. Uh, but she also has, she has a, a daughter. and I used to be roommates with Shelby actually, and she wasn't, 

I don't know if custody is the right word. The daughter lived with Shelby's mom and currently Shelby has found herself, um, living with the two of [00:31:00] them and in a new, very stable job she's doing like 

financially better than she's ever done and, and very, uh, just more stable and responsible.

So if stairs are incremental progress they're no longer stairs, they're now. 

That cause that first part of the ladder entry about like made it sound like it was about much quicker, like directly upward 

progress, right?

[00:31:26] Olivia: To dream

of a, a higher degree of responsibility than, or positive behavior 

[00:31:32] Victor: than 

[00:31:32] Olivia: normal for you 

A situation that makes you have to think more maturely 



a higher level.

That's like, that all feels like new 



[00:31:43] Zach: New job moving back in with your mom and your daughter 

to be there to like 

[00:31:48] Victor: Mm-hmm.

or like, or like

a renewed responsibility for her daughter. Right? Like, um, like before, if she wasn't living with [00:32:00] her daughter, um, it may have felt more like, living as like a single unattached person and maybe progress felt more. I, 

[00:32:09] Olivia: I, 

I don't know, 

[00:32:10] Victor: maybe I'm way 

[00:32:11] Olivia: out 

[00:32:11] Zach: Yeah, potentially. I don't think she 

[00:32:13] Victor: have, 

it may have, you know, uh, felt. More like the kind of, uh, life progression that you would feel if you didn't, if you weren't living, in service of another person. Well, if you have shifted to like, um, being a parent, being like the primary drive for what you're doing, that may be this higher degree of responsibility, 






[00:32:39] Zach: Yeah.

I think that did. the fact that they used to be this slower, more incremental 

form of progress, I think would resonate with Shelby as well. Um, as well as her mom insisting that it was always a ladder, cuz that when we 

talked about this, when we talked about this, she was saying it's not, she doesn't think her mom has ever like [00:33:00] deliberately gas at her, she does feel like maybe 

she has been, How do I put this?

Like, um,

I don't know if toxic po positivity is the right term, but you know, that's sort of like 

[00:33:13] Victor: of like 

[00:33:13] Zach: you you see it a lot in like 

the evangel Evangelical Christian community where you're like, Oh no, everything's gonna be fine. It's all good. We, they don't wanna talk about bad stuff. They don't wanna talk about darkness.

so that kind of like gas diet, gas lighting, you know what I mean? Or like, just pretend, just pretending the bad things aren't there, I think is what Shelby's mom has mostly been guilty of in the past. More so than like real gas lighting and that. But that tracks with the, I dunno, they've always been ladders. 

[00:33:42] Victor: something

that's interesting 

[00:33:43] Olivia: here too. So, um, correct me if I'm wrong, but you said Shelby 


moved into 

[00:33:48] Victor: her 


[00:33:48] Olivia: house.

[00:33:49] Zach: Yeah, I believe so. 

[00:33:51] Olivia: Okay. And in 





the, the entry to her mom's house and, or [00:34:00] like the, I don't, I imagine ladders 

[00:34:02] Victor: to 

the house. 

[00:34:03] Olivia: Is 

that what 



[00:34:04] Zach: Yeah, she described it. she used the word 

[00:34:06] Victor: Use The word art 


[00:34:08] Olivia: Okay. 


[00:34:09] Zach: of 


[00:34:10] Olivia: it, it, it's kind of like the access to that place where her 




[00:34:18] Victor: it's 

the access 





changed, and 

the connection to it. Right. 


her connection to where her mom lives now is, has this grounded 




Um, and, and becoming accustomed to, um, taking on 






[00:34:37] Olivia: a more 




[00:34:39] Zach: it could be that Shelby is, in the past, thought that the ladders were stairs because she thought that there was like a broader gap between her and her family. And it would, it would stand the reason that her mom would now be like, No, they've always been welcome here, even if you didn't feel it until now,

[00:34:57] Victor: Hmm.

[00:34:57] Zach: would be my take 

on that. .

[00:35:00] Uh, Also, the fact that the apartment looked very Bible 


as she put it. I don't know,

[00:35:05] Victor: you know, 


me that's 

[00:35:06] Zach: that 

feels like, uh, 

like maybe she feels like she's starting over or starting a new 

[00:35:12] Victor: the chapter


[00:35:14] Zach: at the beginning, starting a new book at chapter 

one, Genesis.

[00:35:18] Victor: What's 


next entry you have 


up here?

 Next entry is Grim Reaper. And on that topic, so like you're saying Zach, there's this Bible motif, and, the, there does seem to be a theme throughout that dream, seem to be a little bit of a tension of being in her mom's house and feeling that like her mom has a belief system that isn't her own, or that like, maybe her belief system is subversive to her mom's belief in some way.

Or like filing away secretly like, Oh, that dress looks symbolic of, of my faith. That, um, that I, I know this is not the place to [00:36:00] bring that up. 


[00:36:01] Olivia: Um, 

[00:36:02] Victor: So it's like the Bible motif might also kind of connect to her feeling like she has come into a place where her mom's faith is kind of the dominant thing there.

Or like she's, she's moving into that space. 

So grim reaper, to dream of the Grim reaper represents closure or finishing an aspect of your personality or a situation that forces transition and may also reflect a situation in your life that is an omen of inevitable change, Feeling that time is up and you now have to accept a change or failure.

The grim reaper may appear in a dream to reflect the end of a situation, habit, or relationship change or failure that must be accepted because time has run out. No more chances to change or alter a situation.

[00:36:49] Zach: I feel like some of that might connect 

[00:36:51] Victor: Perfect. 

[00:36:53] Zach: in, in so far as 

the mythology of the Grim Reaper has overlap with Santon Morte. I'm just, I'm not familiar enough with 

[00:36:59] Olivia: Right. 

[00:36:59] Zach: to 

[00:37:00] know where that overlap is, 

[00:37:01] Victor: I, 

[00:37:02] Olivia: And 

I'm only 

going off 


that it's, you know, the saint of death. Right. And that, um, the actual visual imagery of Santa Marte does have 

some overlap 

with the grim raper. 

[00:37:15] Victor: but 




[00:37:17] Olivia: line, 

[00:37:17] Zach: about inevitable change. 

[00:37:20] Victor: an aspect of your personality or 



forces transition. that she's in a big transition right now. Right Into a new job, into a new living situation where she is living with her daughter. Right. Um, that's a lot of transition, um, 

an aspect 

of your situation that forces transition. So I would say that that is the job, the aspect of 

the situation 

would be.

[00:37:47] Olivia: Is that the job that, 


what would 



is the reason 


[00:37:50] Victor: moved 


with her 


[00:37:52] Zach: Oh, uh, that's a good question. I mean, I don't think we talked explicitly about that, 

but [00:38:00] I get the I get the, impression it is to be an adult, you know, and live with, live with her daughter and, and be there for her. Her mom is also in a relationship with her s uh, step-dad. That's a little difficult.

[00:38:13] Olivia: Yeah, it might not be the job, the job actually might be a part of the, the transition, but like something in Shelby's 

[00:38:20] Victor: life 


[00:38:21] Olivia: was like a catalyst for both of these big transitions that like something maybe happened that is a transition into, or that forced her to transition into a new job and into this living situation.

Um, and that, I don't know, and maybe you don't know, but, um, Shelby, let us know 

[00:38:39] Victor: if 







[00:38:41] Zach: um, I get the impression that the major overlap in the grim reaper entry with Santa Morte has to do with more, with everything that mentioned newness and change, more so 


the end. Although I get, I guess the, a new thing is always the end of an old thing 

[00:38:58] Olivia: Yeah, it's interesting how that, [00:39:00] entry throughout each of those lines is this or that, and it's like 


or end newness or failure and, 



it's like, it's interesting that it could be one 



other of 


two very different things. Right. but 

I, I, 

I agree 

with you.


[00:39:16] Victor: does 



[00:39:17] Olivia: there's 

more positive and forward looking, um, 

[00:39:22] Victor: side 

to that, 







[00:39:24] Zach: Yeah, I think that's how 

I also don't know anything 


Brujeria but I think, um, 

you know, people who look to Santo Marte that I think they have, um, 

a more positive outlook on, on 

death, or at least not as grim as we do in our, predominantly in 

our culture. 

[00:39:43] Victor: Yeah, it does seem like it's connected to, um, an interpretation of, of the symbolism of death as being positive, of being like, transition, change, opportunity for newness, you know, the other side of creation, [00:40:00] right?

[00:40:00] Zach: Yeah, 

[00:40:01] Victor: I, 

[00:40:01] Zach: it would, which in that entry, they sounded like when it was going this or that, it sounded like two very different things, but it kind of is like just two sides of the same door.

[00:40:10] Victor: I did pull up the, Wikipedia entry. 

That's the best resource I'm finding so far. Yes. Yeah. Um, so Santa Morte, Our Lady of the Holy Death is a personification of death. Unlike other saints who originated in Mexican folk Catholicism, Santa Marte is not herself seen as a dead human being.

She's associated with healing, protection, financial wellbeing, an assurance of a path to the afterlife. Although there are other death saints in Latin America, such as San La Marte, Santa Marte is the only female saint of death in either of the Americas. The early figures of the saint or male icono graphically, Santa Marte is a skeleton dressed in female clothes or a shred carrying both a site and a [00:41:00] globe.

[00:41:00] Zach: That's super sick. 

I didn't realize there was, there was literally a gender into the


[00:41:06] Victor: yeah, 


yeah. But this does seem like a, like a positive interpretation of the concept of death, you know, like optimistic 

[00:41:15] Olivia: fatalism or 


[00:41:16] Victor: wanna 



[00:41:17] Olivia: And I think that 

that is, um, 

[00:41:21] Victor: correct 

[00:41:21] Olivia: if I'm wrong, but, uh, you know, like Dia de los Martos is like, it's a holiday to celebrate, you know, and, uh, the return 

of your, people 

in your life who've who've passed.

And, uh, it that there's much more celebration and like acceptance 

[00:41:37] Victor: of death, 

[00:41:37] Olivia: um, as far as I'm 


Um, so it 

makes sense that 

there's more of a positive, 




with it. 

[00:41:45] Zach: They get into it in la it's pretty 


[00:41:48] Olivia: Yeah. 

[00:41:49] Zach: At least in, in my 

neighborhood. oh, I had a thought about the, the cake thing, um, relating to Santo Mor. I wonder the cake 

looked [00:42:00] like this iconography, 


it was being served by this woman, 

as, as a dessert, you know, as, as, as a suite.


so I'm trying to tie this into like what you were saying earlier about, you know, she's coming into her mom's home where there's a predominant. 


um, to me, that sort of feels like her, something that's important to her is being looked at as something frivolous and, and also belonging to a doll like 

a child's toy. 

[00:42:30] Victor: Mm. 

[00:42:30] Zach: there just, there seems to be kind of like she's picking up on, on some kind of like patronizing of her own beliefs.

[00:42:36] Victor: there's definitely something deeper going on with, with the house guest. Right. Like, wasn't another aspect of, of that character. simultaneously being very young and very old.

[00:42:47] Zach: Yeah.

[00:42:48] Victor: Um, 

[00:42:49] Zach: Yeah. She

was, she was told in the dream that this person was her age, so like late twenties, but she looked 

much older. 

[00:42:56] Victor: To my mind that the, the coexistence of those things feels [00:43:00] connected to 


this. Perspective on death. Right. Or this view of, of death, this simultaneous oldness and newness, right? It was like, 


and then for the, that character to present this thing that's this dress, this symbol of death, but also like this thing that's taken, uh, by her mom on its face value is like, Oh, it's, it's a cake.

Or, or, or whatever. Or it's 

dessert again, maybe, 

maybe I'm stretching, but I wonder if, um, this house guest on some level maybe represented 



but I don't it kind of seemed like it. 


she said that she looked, 




her description 




Yeah. She 

[00:43:44] Zach: dressed very simply in a black. Kind of cloak like dress and looked very thin and pale, almost sickly with very light blonde hair, which aged her just by virtue of not looking healthy. 

[00:43:53] Victor: 

And there's, there's a little bit before that, right? Where it was kind of her mom's introduction of 

[00:44:00] her or 

[00:44:00] Zach: She told me that the, She had told me that the woman is a very young mother, younger than me even, but that she dress and presented and even physically looks much older. 

This was also the woman that was giving an exorcism to her son that 

was giving Shelby the creeps.

[00:44:15] Olivia: Yeah. Well, 


first thing that 


of is 

the sickly unhealthy 


[00:44:22] Victor: Santa, where they, it literally has like a skeleton, a, a 

skull face, there could also be, um, I 

[00:44:32] Olivia: don't, I don't know. 





Oh, Hery reflects her 






[00:44:39] Victor: Oh, 




direct connection. 

[00:44:41] Olivia: There's direct 


Okay. I feel better 


that now.

[00:44:48] Victor: But like 

we were talking about, um, like a shift into maybe like a new responsibility, right?

And like a new, like a new weight to the world or what have you, you know, taking on this new job and [00:45:00] everything. Um, and so for this guest to both be very much like her, right? Like similar age mother, but then also to, um,

[00:45:11] Olivia: be,

[00:45:12] Victor: Uh, old and, and sickly looking or like, you know, not looking well, could connect to maybe like a weariness that she feels about taking on this new role or, or, or this shift in how she's approaching, uh, her responsibilities or her life.

[00:45:29] Zach: Yeah. And in that case, the exorcism is interesting cuz she said it made her feel uncomfortable to hear about it and the fact that she was 

doing it on her. kid, 

Sorry, I'm sort of building this plane, this is taking off. 

I feel like that could

symbolize some like 

discomfort with 

the way things she's handled things with her daughter in the past or maybe the way that her mother has handled things with her.

It could represent, uh, what she's departing from on this new 

venture or trying to, trying to stay 

away from. [00:46:00] 

If that makes.

[00:46:01] Victor: Yeah, I

feel like, I don't remember the, the exorcism part of the dream very well. It was the 



[00:46:07] Zach: It was kind of in passing. Yeah. When she was climbing up the ladder to her mom's apartment, She could hear before she got there, her mom and the lady talking about giving the lady's kid an 


[00:46:16] Victor: Interesting. 

Can we look at 



[00:46:20] Zach: Cause I'm wondering, all this other stuff seems so related. 

like Age and 

and death and cycles and different, different religious, uh, iconography as I'm wondering 

how crabs are gonna 

play into it. 

[00:46:34] Olivia: Could 

you, um, uh, reiterate, we've just been talking about the other thing for a long time. What, at what point 



crabs appear 

[00:46:42] Victor: in 

in what context?

[00:46:44] Zach: I guess towards the 

beginning when she's climbing

up to the 


there's, Yeah, there's like these enclaves next to entrance of each unit. Cause it's like an apartment building. And in one of 'em, she's a, there's. 

Big ass crabs and she's afraid they're gonna bite her or [00:47:00] not 

bite. You know what I mean? 

[00:47:01] Victor: To dream of a crab represents an irritable or pessimistic attitude, A crabby personality, you or someone else that is in a bad mood or talking down about everything, feelings about yourself or someone else. Being a choosing to never respect anything positive or uplifting. An 

[00:47:21] Olivia: attitude 

[00:47:22] Victor: that ruins other people's good mood, feeling that someone is making you jealous, that you can enjoy yourself with a positive attitude.

[00:47:30] Zach: That one felt 

[00:47:31] Victor: kinda half ass, 

[00:47:32] Olivia:

kind of feel like, um, we would maybe need to hear from Shelby on how this relates cuz this might be like playing in 

[00:47:39] Victor: more 

into her 

like, yeah. 

[00:47:41] Olivia: Yeah, 

[00:47:42] Victor: Yeah. It could, it could be a total red herring, could be maybe something that she's feeling about herself, Right. On some levels. Like maybe I'm being more crabby and that's on her mind, or there's some 

[00:47:52] Olivia: person 


don't know 




that feeling.

Or it

could be like, it it, 


the thing 

is like 


crabs might not like [00:48:00] represent a person, but just like the crabbiness and the pessimism and she's, she is worried that it's gonna bite her, but she passes by it.

She doesn't get, or she doesn't get pinched by the crabs. You 

know, it's something she doesn't 

bring in 

[00:48:15] Victor: with 






[00:48:18] Zach: yeah, like a general negativity that she's seeing, like

[00:48:22] Victor: So this woman, she was, um, discussing an exorcism for her own child, the stranger. Okay. And that made Shelby feel uncomfortable, . Is that this stranger was 

[00:48:33] Olivia: considering an exorcism 




[00:48:36] Victor:

think she already 





son or 

[00:48:39] Zach: Sun. Sun. Yeah.

Yeah. That's why that lady seems to be more closely tied to Shelby's mom's evangelical roots than the Santa Mote thing, which makes the like serving of the dress feel like a dis to me, a dismissal of the.

[00:48:55] Olivia: I'm 

noticing a theme among all of these symbols like [00:49:00] positivity and negativity that seems 

[00:49:02] Victor: to 


[00:49:02] Olivia: every 




looked at 

so far. 

[00:49:04] Victor: It's 

[00:49:05] Olivia: in everything down to the dress and the color of 

[00:49:09] Victor: the 

, it says here, a blue dress symbolizes you or some area of your life that 

is compliant or 

[00:49:16] Olivia: helpful 


[00:49:16] Victor: positive way.

And then, 

[00:49:18] Zach: I mean that, that, that makes 

sense with 


[00:49:20] Olivia: look at that.

[00:49:22] Victor: And then, uh, the doll entry, Cause it was a, That's crazy. It was a doll dress. I haven't read this yet, but Olivia has, uh, to dream of, a doll represents a person or a situation in your life that innocently molds or complies to your wishes using your innocence to get others to do things for you.

It may also reflect waking life situations where you are talking to someone that never disagrees with you. 

What's the 


you're saying there?

Olivia: Uh, compliance. It 

just uses the word complies in both of those. I thought that was an, an interesting, that's an interesting word to be in both of those entries.

Victor: Mm. Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm.[00:50:00] 

[00:50:00] Olivia: So

[00:50:00] Victor: like walking through the scenario, the dream again, really quick. It's like this woman presents a thing that has secret meaning. To, our dreamer here, uh, but she stays quiet about it. Lets like, lets this be enjoyed on the level that her mom wants to engage with it.

[00:50:19] Zach: Right. 

[00:50:20] Victor: So maybe that is a sense that is the compliance, right?

Is that even though I see this is, uh, there's meaning here for me that isn't there for you, I'm gonna let you 



[00:50:33] Zach: Yeah. The important thing is it's helping everybody, so we don't need to get into it a tiff about the details 

of it. 

[00:50:40] Victor: Mm-hmm. 

which could speak to, you know, she might be coming into living with her mom with an attitude of, um, not wanting to be confrontational, maybe about stuff that they'd previously bickered about. I, I'm just kind of projecting my own, my own family experiences onto that. 


[00:50:58] Zach: Yeah. 


And [00:51:00] I think she credits, um, 

Santa Morte with, with some of these positive changes in our life. So I think if her mom 

has a, you know, a dismissive Attitude. 

[00:51:11] Victor: Attitude. 

[00:51:11] Zach: it, it would make sense that Shelby wouldn't want to interact with it. Cuz it's like, you don't need to 

understand, you know, the important thing is I'm, I'm here and taking care of 


[00:51:22] Zach: things. 

[00:51:23] Olivia: Hmm. What's our 


[00:51:24] Victor: one?

Dessert to dream of eating dessert represents pleasant feelings about something being over. You may be treating yourself or giving yourself a reward now that a difficulty has finished, indulging in or celebrating your success 

[00:51:40] Olivia: satisfaction 

the job 

well done.




that they're

[00:51:43] Victor: eating

[00:51:44] Olivia: the like 

[00:51:45] Victor: compliant 

blue dress,

[00:51:48] Zach: Yeah. I feel like that plays into what we were just talking about with the, um, the 

different outlooks on, on, on spiritual journey,

[00:51:57] Victor: And there is like a, there's a satisfaction [00:52:00] with, with feeling like, um, you're handling something the right way, even if it's maybe like irritating to you, You know? It's like I'm, I'm being a grown up about this and I'm, I'm doing what I'm supposed to be doing, even if I'm irritated or whatever.

[00:52:16] Zach: Yeah. And there's also the, you know, 

the angle of she, once she cut into it, she was like, Oh, well maybe it wasn't addressed. Maybe it is just baclava or whatever. Um, so that could be her subconsciously telling herself that she may be misreading some things that her mom does as slights and 

they're not, 

But I would've to ask Shelby about that.

[00:52:38] Olivia: I

[00:52:39] Victor: do feel like this, this guest, this house guest 


[00:52:42] Olivia: like 

real can 


worms though. 

Yeah. I feel 

[00:52:44] Victor: I feel like 






a lot. 

[00:52:47] Zach: Yeah. Yeah. 

It feels like an interesting 

[00:52:50] Victor: charact 

[00:52:51] Zach: in like a horror movie where you're like 

[00:52:52] Victor: not 

[00:52:53] Zach: if

what their, uh, moral alignment is and, and act 


[00:52:57] Olivia: horror. 

[00:52:57] Victor: Right. 

[00:52:58] Olivia: Well, 

feel like we [00:53:00] 

kind of dissected it, 

but like 

we, maybe 


be cool to hear from Shelby, 


a summary 

on um, 

[00:53:07] Victor: how 




[00:53:08] Zach: we'll do a follow up in another 

[00:53:10] Victor: Yeah, 

[00:53:10] Olivia: yeah. 


do that. 

[00:53:11] Victor: you, 





[00:53:14] Zach: Boom. 

olivia dream

[00:53:25] Olivia: So I had this dream the other night. 






to borrow

[00:53:31] Victor: sign

[00:53:32] Olivia: guy's truck. You may remember a sign guy from 



[00:53:38] Zach: Oh, oh oh yeah. 

[00:53:39] Olivia: yeah. So the sign guy for you listeners. This is, um, a pseudonym for, uh, the person that my, 

my mom 


dating for 

a long time.

Um, currently they're living together, but not 


[00:53:54] Victor:

relationship, And 





[00:53:57] Zach: And he's the kind of guy that would bring us signs [00:54:00] who a political 


[00:54:02] Olivia: Yeah. 

[00:54:03] Zach: Is where that just to paint a picture, 

[00:54:06] Victor: Yeah. 

[00:54:07] Zach: comes from 

[00:54:08] Victor: He's the kind of guy that stands 

[00:54:10] Olivia: on 

the street 


[00:54:11] Victor: with a political sign



[00:54:14] Zach: without a 


[00:54:15] Olivia: Yeah. 

no, literally. 


[00:54:19] Victor: so

[00:54:19] Olivia:

was going there to borrow his truck and when I got there he was really friendly and in a 

[00:54:26] Victor: good 


[00:54:26] Olivia: and 

was happy to let me borrow his truck. And I looked 

[00:54:30] Victor: in the 



[00:54:31] Olivia: truck 


it had this like, 




Tad Pool pond. In the bed of the truck, there were 

a bunch 


Tad Pools and I was, Or Tad Pools. 

Tad Pools. 

And I was like, excited about that. I don't know, I, I find Tad Pools exciting . I was like, I was just kind of watching them swim around and I was looking for ones that had like legs and I noticed there were a few that 




[00:54:59] Victor: [00:55:00] developed 


[00:55:01] Olivia: and he said, Yeah, I'm, I'm moving back to the Midwest and I'm, I'm taking them with me. I'm taking them back to the Midwest to, I don't know. I got the sense 

that he 

was gonna 

[00:55:13] Victor: set 



[00:55:14] Olivia: there or something.

[00:55:16] Victor: Um, 

[00:55:17] Olivia: Side note, he's not from the Midwest, he's from New York, 


it's kind of 

interesting that he said that.

[00:55:23] Victor: Um, 

[00:55:24] Olivia: and then I look 

down and I 

see there are a couple of the fully developed frogs in there 




thing where they're 


kind of doing a, you know, like when you were a kid and you do a handstand 

[00:55:35] Victor: in 



[00:55:36] Olivia: and like 

your, your legs stick up outta the water and you're just kind of like, they feel kind 


heavy above the water, so 

they're kind of waving around.




doing that, they were, these 


back frog legs were sticking up straight 

up outta the water and kind of like waving. 




their feet were purple. And [00:56:00] either I was told or I knew that this was, um, a 

particular thing that this 


of frog 




[00:56:06] Victor: the whole 


[00:56:07] Zach: That was short and sweet.

So there sign guy. There's an ecosystem in the back of a truck.

[00:56:14] Olivia: which 


[00:56:15] Victor: gonna 

[00:56:15] Olivia: borrow. 

do remember 

briefly thinking



I can just put the stuff I 


[00:56:21] Victor: to haul 






[00:56:25] Zach: Oh, right. You're right. You're gonna borrow the track. Yeah. That's weird that it didn't seem more inconvenient 

to you. 

[00:56:31] Victor:

was just 




tad poles 

[00:56:34] Zach: and they're in varying stages of 

Tad pole growth. 

[00:56:39] Olivia: Yeah, I think, um, most of them were tadpoles. A couple of them had legs 



couple had fully turned into 



[00:56:47] Victor: uh, 




I guess,

was the whole dream around the bed of the truck or did you, I thought you said you went inside and there was something with the, 

[00:56:58] Olivia: That's 


you saw 



or the 

[00:57:00] purple 

feed? No,

no. I was, um, kind 

[00:57:02] Victor: of 


[00:57:03] Olivia: outside 






in. think the main thing that stood out to me, aside from the Tad Pools was, um, sign guys' attitude. Like 

the big 

tension in, 


waking life here is 

[00:57:19] Victor: that, um, 

[00:57:21] Olivia: a sign guy 


kind of refusing 


move out 

of this house. And objectively, anyone looking 

[00:57:28] Victor: at 

this situation 

[00:57:29] Olivia: say, 

uh, it makes sense for, him 


[00:57:32] Victor: leave.

[00:57:33] Olivia: And, and in this dream, he was 

[00:57:36] Victor: moving 

[00:57:37] Olivia: and 




[00:57:40] Zach: Happy about 

[00:57:41] Victor: Yeah. 

[00:57:41] Olivia: like 


[00:57:42] Victor: the 




Should we 

[00:57:44] Olivia: start 





and Yeah. 

[00:57:47] Victor: So 

tadpoles to dream of tadpoles represents feelings of something or someone in your life being impossibly avoidant. Feeling that you can't even try to do something without it quickly [00:58:00] resulting in disappointment. Feeling 

that disappointment is intuitive about never allowing to try to do something you want.

Feeling that getting close to something at all makes it less 

likely. Dreams 

of tadpoles may reflect a woman's wish to get pregnant while trying to conceive when the man partner is always impossible 



time with 

[00:58:23] Olivia: That's funny.

[00:58:24] Victor: Mm-hmm. 


[00:58:25] Olivia: uh, So, someone in your life being impossibly avoidant.

The thing that stood out 

in this 

[00:58:33] Victor: dream was 

[00:58:34] Olivia: that, 


[00:58:35] Victor: he was 


[00:58:37] Olivia: to me. And, uh, I've had other dreams and reflecting our, like, waking life interactions, which have been like sparse, but he usually will like not say hi to me or like avoid eye contact or like, kind of just grunt 

and like 

[00:58:52] Victor: barely 



[00:58:53] Olivia: Um, 




[00:58:57] Victor:






[00:58:59] Zach: [00:59:00] it feels very connected and impossibly avoidant. That's 


[00:59:03] Olivia: Yeah. 

[00:59:04] Zach: a t.

[00:59:05] Olivia: Yeah. 


had, I 


another Dr Okay, this 


maybe a wild side note, but I had another dream about him related to an animal. Mm-hmm. , um, which was that I walked into my mom's 



I saw 

him in the room 

and he, 

[00:59:22] Victor: he 

[00:59:23] Olivia: like, didn't 

acknowledge me and 

[00:59:24] Victor:


[00:59:25] Olivia: I said, 


sign guy. And 


didn't say anything.

And I said it again, 


Hi, sign 

guy. And he said, Hi. And, and 

[00:59:34] Victor: then I 

[00:59:35] Olivia: walked up the stairs and, um, and I looked over the, like the railing of that looks down to where I originally saw him. And there was 

huge cockroach just sitting above the door, 

the front 

door that I 

just walked in. And I remember 


I've seen that cockroach before here and 

it's gotten 

[00:59:56] Victor: much bigger 





[00:59:58] Zach: That one feels like a pretty easy [01:00:00] one to 


[01:00:01] Victor: The cockroach entry is pretty spot on for what you think it would mean in this context. It said to dream of cockroaches represents feelings of undesirability, something you really don't want in your life. Feelings about a situation being low quality, dirty or poor. A tarnished reputation, a continuous problem, feeling annoyed by something subpar 

[01:00:25] Olivia: that 



[01:00:26] Zach: Yeah. And you've seen it


in this, in this house. 

It's like, 

you know, this, this persisting 

issue with this guy. 

[01:00:34] Olivia: Yes. 

And it's, and it was only getting bigger. So yeah. I mean, that's definitely what that dream means. There's nothing more to that. But coming back to Tadpoles though, this dream was very different in the, in the sense that the first thing I noticed was that he was no longer doing that thing where he's like, doesn't wanna say hi 

to me.

He was 

like looking me in the eye and like he was like, Yeah, I'm moving back to the Midwest. 

[01:00:59] Victor: Like 


[01:01:00] was 

having a 





[01:01:02] Zach: yeah, And even bigger than 

[01:01:03] Victor: than that, 

[01:01:04] Zach: Doing the one thing that is, you know, solving the one thing that is the biggest problem, which is leaving.

[01:01:09] Victor: right. 

[01:01:10] Zach: also it's 

the dream. Bible's so weird how it's, it'll be like, sometimes it's just like, yeah, crabs are crabby people, 

but then other times it's like, pulls are disappointment and avoidance. Like 


[01:01:24] Olivia: Yeah. That's so wild. Cuz that to me, like 

that feels 

like, possibility and like, like growth potential. Like I, that would be my intuitive,


[01:01:36] Zach: Yeah, like the pregnancy 


The pregnancy read made sense. 

[01:01:40] Olivia: Right? But it's, it's specifically like conceiving with a 

[01:01:43] Victor:



impossible to 




[01:01:46] Zach: Yeah. Which that doesn't seem to be part of this dream. 

[01:01:49] Olivia: but 


[01:01:50] Victor: taking 



[01:01:51] Olivia: away 

[01:01:52] Zach: Oh, that's true. 

[01:01:54] Victor: true. and 


[01:01:54] Olivia: releasing 


[01:01:56] Victor: into the 


[01:01:57] Zach: Do you think you have this dream [01:02:00] because you are picking up on like the possibility of this actually happening 

or is it all hopeful? Hopeful, projection.

[01:02:06] Olivia:

hope so. 

[01:02:08] Victor: that 

would be great.

I mean, this is the, this is the ideal resolution with Sege, right? 

Is that he 

stop being, 

quietly confrontational or passive aggressive and he does the thing you would like him to do, which is to move and make his own life.

Like, make a separate life 

[01:02:29] Olivia: It's 

interesting is 

[01:02:30] Victor: did 


pull up 


Midwest? Is 

[01:02:32] Olivia: there 




[01:02:33] Victor:

couldn't find 






[01:02:35] Olivia: Just interesting to me because he's not from the Midwest, and I remember thinking that in the dream. I was like, Oh, okay, back to 

[01:02:44] Victor: the 








[01:02:47] Zach: like 

[01:02:47] Victor: Midwest mean 

[01:02:48] Olivia: to 



[01:02:50] Victor: Mm-hmm. 


[01:02:52] Zach: uh, snow.

[01:02:53] Olivia: Yeah. 

[01:02:54] Victor: Flat. 

[01:02:55] Olivia: but also just maybe it's like a new place, 



far [01:03:00] away, 

[01:03:00] Victor: it feels like grounded to me. Right. So it's like maybe like finding grounded even 




[01:03:09] Olivia: So 

[01:03:10] Victor: there were frogs, 

right? Yes. There were frogs in the pond. The 


I'm surprised that the tad pool entry didn't have anything about like, if the tad pools turned into frogs, there's nothing in there. Um, but the frog entry is to dream of a frog represents situations in your life that harmlessly don't listen to you or annoy you, that they aren't what you really want to experience.

Often a symbol for experiences that leave you jealous that something isn't working out. Jealous of not having your choice, disappointments, or feelings about goals that have escaped your ability to achieve them. Relationships or situations that failed or don't happen as you expected them to. Jealousy that what you want to experience alludes you or as not 


easy as you thought it would be.

People in your life that are good listeners, but don't do what it is that you [01:04:00] really want. Some area of your life that just, isn't it. Frogs in a dream may be a sign that you need to accept a non-functioning situation, relationship, hope or promise as never doing what you would like it to 

do. And 



colors of


[01:04:17] Zach: Damn. That seems really 

contrary to the 

[01:04:20] Olivia: Yeah. 

I'm not 



[01:04:21] Victor: how that, 

applies. Does 





to you? 

[01:04:25] Zach: direct. It seems to directly apply against 

the, the whole situation of him, like Congenially leaving.

[01:04:32] Victor: I would say it makes a certain amount of sense to me given that 


waking life, 



I don't 

think either of us think it's very likely that sign guy is going to ever do 


he's doing 

in this 


And this is, that's the desire, right? Is like sign guys gonna come to a realization of I'm not doing anybody any good, like hanging around, being, being you. [01:05:00] Uh, upset about this relationship not working out. I'm gonna move on, build a new life somewhere else and be cool to everybody. I don't know that you see that as a real possibility.

So the frog entry is saying you're accepting that this thing that's being presented 

[01:05:18] Olivia: in 

a. is 






completely correct. Like he is dragging his feet and like is going to do that until the end. And if he does leave, it's not going to be on, you 


a good 

note. Unfortunately. I just, I know that, 

[01:05:35] Zach: Do you think maybe That's 


[01:05:38] Victor: that. 

[01:05:38] Zach: you your brain included the, like, cuz he said he was going back to the Midwest, even though you in the dream knew that that was not factual. Do you think like you started the, your subconscious started building this dream as like a fantasy of something you want to happen and then part way, way through it realized that this was not real.

So it gave you like this details that [01:06:00] tells you it's not even, that's not even the guy you're 


[01:06:02] Victor: not even 

[01:06:02] Olivia: Yeah, that's, yeah. That's interesting. 




explanation I 

have for that part. 

[01:06:07] Victor: I've got two more entries, 

The dream of a pickup truck represents decision making or control over a situation that involved hard work or fixing something, feelings about you or someone else that has a job to do. Behavior that is focused on fulfilling obligations or responsibilities, a direction in life that is centered on getting the job done or working hard to restore 

a situation, 

a hard work effort or labor mindset needed to deal with an issue negatively.

Dreaming about a pickup truck may point to annoyance, frustration, or jealousy with needing to fix a problem instead of enjoying yourself. Feelings about hard work, being excessive, or that a problem will take a very long time to fix. Lots of work to do with nothing successful happening. Issues with relationships, work situations, or needing to pay bills, [01:07:00] financial instability.

That requires a lot of 


I feel like the truck, you know, it representing work that needs to be done could connect to your feeling that sign guy has 

a job 

to do here. Yeah. His responsibility is, like start being decent 

[01:07:16] Olivia: to 





this thing,

Lots of work to do with nothing successful happening. Issues with 


[01:07:24] Zach: Yeah. And you came over to your mom's to borrow the truck, right?

So it kinda seems like this dream took a course of like you're going over there 

to remedy your mom's situation yourself, and then slowly 

realizing you can't.

[01:07:39] Olivia: Yeah.

[01:07:40] Victor: And the cockroach dream from a couple months ago was like, you go to your mom's place, there's this tension with sign guy. You see the cockroach, which represents your frustration with Sign Guy. It's, uh,

[01:07:52] Olivia: you're,

[01:07:53] Victor: That dream is kind of you living out your going over there and doing something right or like your, [01:08:00] your need to do that.

And this dream is maybe a couple months down the road you coming to or you grappling with. There's not really anything for me to do here. Sign guys the only one that can 

[01:08:11] Olivia: deal 

with the situation 


he's not 





Know. I, I do feel like it's, it's 

going to 





[01:08:20] Zach: Yeah. It sounds like you're just working through the idea that the way it's gonna sort of self out isn't gonna be him just packing up and leaving with a 


on his said, it will sort of self out. It just might be kinda long and arduous, not

[01:08:35] Victor: And also like accepting that you don't really have a role in it. You're emotionally invested in 


but there's really not a lot. 

Anything I can do. 


[01:08:45] Olivia: Yeah.

[01:08:46] Victor: I've got the color purple, which is the color of the foot sticking up out of the 


[01:08:51] Olivia: It was like little frog feet doing like shimmery purple 



[01:08:55] Victor: out 


the water

So the color purple in a dream [01:09:00] represents neutrality or powerlessness, something that is uncaring, unbiased, or totally powerless. Positively. Purple can symbolize having no bias or situations that are open. This will usually be represented by lighter shades of purple negatively. The color purple reflects powerlessness.

You are totally unable to respond or react or do what you want impotence in some form. This will usually be represented by darker shades of purple. When you see purple. In a dream, it can represent a negative situation that has been neutralized by a positive situation or a positive situation that 

has been neutralized 




The symbol for purple is metaphorically based on the mixture of blue and red, which in waking life creates purple when mixed. Since blue symbolizes positivity and red symbolizes 

[01:09:50] Olivia: negativity, Hmm. neutrality 






things. it 






[01:09:58] Victor:

would also say, you [01:10:00] know, if you look at the frog entry, right? Um, and you connect that to like an acceptance of, um, never getting the behavior you want out of sign guy. And it was interesting that the, um, going back a little bit, the cockroach entry talked about tarnished reputation. I think that, um, you didn't always have a real negative view of sign guy.

Your view of sign guy has degraded. Yes. As you've seen how he's handled the end of this relationship, he has not handled it in a mature way. And you now have, have slowly lost all hope that he will handle it in a mature way. And I know like knowing you and knowing the situation, I know that you feel a certain degree of powerlessness here.

You know, where you would like to be able to help, you would like to be able to help your mom get the end result that she wants. And there's not a lot for you to do here, you know, so, The frogs are your acceptance of you're never gonna see what you want from sci. Yeah. The purple of the feet of the frogs could [01:11:00] represent you also acknowledging that there's nothing 

[01:11:01] Olivia: you 




create this 





does make 

[01:11:07] Victor: sense. 

[01:11:08] Zach: sorry, this is kind of an aside, but I just find it really interesting how we were talking uh, cultural symbols earlier. And color is a big, you know, color theory is a, is a big one. Um, like if you're doing wardrobe or set deck for a movie, like every color is 

loaded with, 

with, or imbued with meaning.

And purple is usually, that entry is like completely contrary to what purple normally means, which it has to do with 

like regalness and, and 

royalty. Um, which, which implies power, powerlessness. So I just, I wonder how 

that reverses itself in the

collective psyche. 

[01:11:45] Victor: That is very interesting.

Yeah. And I have the same associations you're talking about when I think of purple, I think of that symbolism that like, oh, it's associated with royalty. And so there's a connection to, you know, money and power with purple. Um, so it [01:12:00] is interesting to see it representing powerlessness 

[01:12:03] Olivia: here because I do feel like that's relevant.

Zach: Yes. And

I don't think that if, I don't think royalty and I, I don't think that that other interpretation does work 

with this. 

[01:12:14] Victor: So 

[01:12:14] Zach: but that's the, that's the waking interpretation. I'm fascinated by how if we all, when we're awake, we all think of purple as one way. How we can all think of it differently when we're dreaming.

[01:12:24] Victor: Yeah. That's so interesting. 

Yeah. That is interesting to think that not only do we all have like a shared, symbology, but that we have two, like we have waking and dreaming symbol or like a conscious and subconscious symbology that we all adhere to. 

[01:12:40] Victor: Yeah. 

[01:12:40] Zach: Except Helen Keller maybe. 

[01:12:43] Victor: Except for Helen Keller and the Kid Raised by Wolves.

[01:12:45] Zach: Well, good luck 

[01:12:47] Olivia: Thanks, yeah. Mm-hmm. 

You've been listening to The Jung and the Restless. You can follow us on Instagram at tThe Jung and the Restless Pod and submit your dreams for interpretation to The Jung and the Restless pod@gmail.com. And as we always say,

Zach, Olivia, and Victor: the chickens won't cross themselves themselves

Outro Music

 Olivia: Do you feel like nobody listens to you? You feel like you're yammering on day in, day out? Nobody gives a shit. Well, I do and Zach does, and so does Victor. We wanna hear. Everything you have to say, but only if it's something that happened in a dream

Zach: and only if it's in the form of an Apple Podcast Review for The Jung and the Restless.

Olivia: That's us. And, uh, we wanna hear what you have to say... for a price. So leave your dream in an Apple Podcast review and we might just read it on the show for everyone to hear if you want that. And if you don't, just leave a five star review.

Zach: Five stars only, please.

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