42. Zach and the Evil Sentient Saw Blade

Lying to yourself- is it an unhealthy coping mechanism, or an effective tool for parenting your inner child? The Dream…...

Lying to yourself- is it an unhealthy coping mechanism, or an effective tool for parenting your inner child? The Dream Team dives into a dream featuring an evil sentient saw blade that is out to get Zach. They figure out the meaning of this symbol via Bob’s Hoss’ Gestalt method for dream interpretation, and have a chat about anxiety.

0:00 Intro

10:53 Short Victor Dream

13:55 Zach's Dream

33:09 Relationships discussion

44:33 Gestalt Method

52:49 Anxiety

About Dream Bible:

Dream Bible is a free online A to Z dream dictionary dedicated to helping people understand the meaning of their dreams. Unlike other dream interpretation websites or books we extensively research dream symbols by interviewing people about the events occurring in their lives at the time of their dreams.  Inspired by the work of Gillian Holloway Ph.D, we are using a database of over 350,000 dream reports to create the world's most practical dream dictionary based on the waking life experiences of regular people.


Dream Bible entries used in this episode:

Saw:  https://www.dreambible.com/search.php?q=saw

Blade: https://www.dreambible.com/search.php?q=blade

Follow us on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/thejungandtherestlesspod/

TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@thejungandtherestlesspod

Check out our website for episode transcripts: https://thejungandtherestlesspodcast.com/

Submit your dreams for interpretation to thejungandtherestlesspod@gmail.com

Episode Transcript

Podcast- 23.08.25 - Vclean (1)

[00:00:00] Zach: Welcome 

[00:00:00] Victor: to the Jung and the restless. I'm Victor. 

[00:00:02] Zach: I'm Zach. 

[00:00:03] Olivia: And I'm Olivia. And this is the podcast where I hate this and it hurts. I have to muster some energy here. I am getting sick, I think.

Oh no, COVID's going around right now.

[00:00:44] Victor: Yeah. 

[00:00:45] Zach: Do I have, oh yeah, I have some COVID tests. 

[00:00:48] Olivia: Yeah, you shouldn't do that.

[00:00:49] Victor: Yeah.

[00:00:50] Zach: I don't want to miss work though.

[00:00:54] Olivia: but

[00:00:56] Zach: Cap,

[00:00:56] Olivia: COVID.

[00:00:57] Victor: Knowledge is power.

[00:00:59] Zach: but money is also power.

[00:01:02] Victor: Well, I mean, once you know, you can just choose to not tell anybody,

[00:01:06] Zach: That's 

[00:01:06] Victor: I guess. 

[00:01:08] Zach: That's the like. Yeah, but back when, um, COVID was more taken seriously, or I guess it was towards the end of like, 2022 or whatever, that was like a common conundrum. People would be feeling sick and then not want to take a test because then you, because you still had to go to work, like, nobody was giving sick pay or anything like that.

Uh, any... If you took the test and tested positive, then you had to lie and go to work. You like, you knew you were going to go to work either way, but it's like, I'd rather not test and then. Not, you know,

[00:01:40] Victor: Yeah, then it's not lying because I don't know whether I have COVID or not.


[00:01:45] Zach: yeah, you don't want to like feel guilty about super spreading

[00:01:48] Victor: so weird how people's brains work.


[00:01:52] Olivia: silly to me.

[00:01:52] Victor: Why

is that like an out for people? I don't understand that at

[00:01:57] Zach: ignorance.

[00:01:58] Victor: Yeah,

like, choosing ignorance, like, 

[00:02:01] Zach: It's worked 

[00:02:02] Victor: if that's better. 

[00:02:03] Zach: Works for me for 30 

[00:02:04] Olivia: it's

like playing,

[00:02:05] Victor: it doesn't...

change the outcome at all.

[00:02:07] Zach: tricking myself is a big it's a cornerstone of my relationship with myself Every meal I'm just hiding nutrients in things I want to eat I put broccoli on the sandwich then like it like a dog with a pill and a piece of bread

[00:02:23] Victor: Mm. Yeah.

[00:02:25] Zach: I had an epiphany about that, or I don't know, epiphany is a strong word, I had a realization, somebody made a comment about like, how adulthood is like parenting yourself, like 

[00:02:37] Olivia: It is, yeah.

[00:02:38] Zach: like when you, I think it was a friend of mine said, um, he felt like a real adult, or when he felt like he had reached real adulthood is when he felt like he had finally managed that transition between his parents parenting him and him parenting himself.

And there was like 10 years of, of no one parenting him, uh, before, before that. And, uh, that put a lot of things in perspective for me. Cause I realized that sometimes I am like, not a great parent. Cause I'm, I'm doing stuff like that. Like, like lying to myself and, and, and using like life hacks to trick my brain into, into, you know what I mean?


[00:03:19] Victor: Yeah, no, I definitely know. I mean, some of that I think is healthy. Like, some of that is, like, figuring out a way to, to, like, motivate yourself or trick yourself into getting, like,

That's how habits can form, right? It's like, okay, first I'm going to do it because there's, A cookie, literally or figuratively

[00:03:40] Olivia: That's your, that's how you 

[00:03:41] Victor: That's how I, well, no, I do ice cream , but Uh, but yeah, you can, you can, uh, like do good things for yourself that way, but then there's also, it can get in your way. For sure.

[00:03:54] Zach: Yeah, yeah, I 


[00:03:55] Olivia: I mostly see people tricking themselves into thinking they're making the right decision when they've already come to the conclusion that they're making a terrible decision.

But it's like, 

[00:04:04] Zach: guess if it's like an ethical issue, that's when it becomes more problematic.

[00:04:07] Victor: like you'll see a lot of denial stuff for people of like, I mean, and like obviously we do it too, everybody does it,

but it's like, You look around and you see a lot of people that are like lying to themselves to get through the day or whatever. And it's like, just human nature, you know, it's just how we operate.

It's not great, but it's how a lot of us like get through the day, I guess.

[00:04:31] Zach: Yeah, the example that jumps to mind of like, where like, Like a crystal clear example for me of like self parenting that maybe isn't like the right way to do it, but has worked. It's been like when I was quitting smoking, when I had a craving, I'd be like, well, 7 Eleven's just down the block. I'll go in an hour and get cigarettes.

Cause I knew that if I was like, I, no, I'm not going to get cigarettes. Like I didn't have the willpower. I didn't have the fortitude. Uh, or, or, or strength to, to just strong arm it like that. So I'd be like, I'll go get cigarettes in an hour. And then an hour would come and I'd be like, well, I'll, I'll go get them in an hour.

And I just kept putting it off. And then eventually, you know, I felt that like child in me being like, you said we'd go get smokes. And I'd be like, well, 7 Eleven's closed, buddy. I'm sorry. And like, but that worked weirdly. It helped get me through cravings, just lying to myself and saying like, yeah, totally.

And it's like, doesn't feel sustainable?

[00:05:25] Victor: I don't know, I feel like, that, like, that's a great example of actually parenting

yourself. It feels like you were nailing it, like, that's a good way to do it. Because, like, your end result was positive, right? And, like, there was no big cost on the other end, right? Like, where, where people go wrong is they'll use that, like, self deluding technique, but they'll use it to, like, stay miserable. Or

like not do things they need to do with themselves, you know, like hard things that they don't want to deal

with and so they'll 

[00:05:56] Olivia: Like a classic thing that like, I've definitely fallen into is like, Like, coming up with reasons why, I, I don't need to break up with this person, I can stay in this

relationship, that's, this is fine, maybe they'll change.

[00:06:13] Victor: Yeah, that's the classic one. Yep.

[00:06:15] Zach: I can fix them.

[00:06:17] Olivia: Yeah, exactly.

[00:06:19] Zach: Yeah, I guess. Yeah. I mean, I don't smoke cigarettes. Uh, normally.

[00:06:25] Victor: Cause you're a good parent,

[00:06:26] Zach: I have one, I have one here and there. But, uh, yeah, I guess, I guess I just had the perspective that maybe that wasn't the best way to do it because I didn't actually learn willpower. I learned. Deception.

[00:06:40] Victor: No, that, I think that is what willpower


[00:06:43] Zach: Maybe, yeah. Jedi mind trick on yourself?

[00:06:48] Victor: Yeah.

[00:06:48] Zach: That makes sense. That would be comforting actually to know that like, I don't know. Mind over metal. Like you can't like, I feel like sometimes I think you're just supposed to brute force everything and like, Everything is akin to like gains in the gym. Like you put pain in and get gain out.

If you're allowed to like, have a more indirect kind of sneaky route, I feel like life sounds a lot more doable that way.

[00:07:14] Olivia: As long as you're getting it done.

[00:07:16] Victor: Yeah, it is like, it is kind of like when you're trying to make yourself, uh, go to the gym or whatever. It's like, first it's like, okay, well, I'm going to go today. Or, I'm gonna go and if I don't go then, like, I have, I'm not gonna let myself get, you know, uh, ice cream. We'll say ice cream again. Uh, or whatever.


you know, but like, those, like, little things help you develop, like, routine and, like, flex some willpower. It will serve you down the road and like maybe you don't need to give yourself the same incentives or do it the same way because you've strengthened your willpower or whatever. I'm not speaking from experience, I can't make myself go to the gym or exercise the same amount.

[00:08:00] Zach: I fell off again. I was so good. I was going at 6 a. m. every day for like a few weeks and then I started falling behind on sleep. And I was like, this isn't like exercise can only do so much for you if you're not resting.

[00:08:16] Victor: but it's

such a mental ga it's got, like it's got a lot less to do with like... Oh, I'm gonna be tired, or whatever, or like, oh, it's gonna be a hard exercise, it's like, getting yourself to do it, getting yourself to go to the place, or start the thing, is like, I, I'll, I'll do it, I'll do the thing I'm talking about, where like, I will

talk myself into the reasons why I shouldn't do it, because like, My subconscious is like, no, you, you like, you, you need to store that fat for the, for the hard winter.

What if the crops don't come in?


[00:08:50] Zach: Uh, yeah. I just needed to get myself to bed earlier.

[00:09:09] Victor: How's everybody feeling? How are we doing today?

I feel like there's like a, there's like a sleepiness to what we're doing today. I feel it. I don't know if everybody else feels it, but like, how's everybody doing?

[00:09:23] Zach: Yeah, and I tried to come in with some energy, like I said, I was feeling sick, so I was trying to like,

[00:09:29] Victor: Uh, yeah. Yeah.

[00:09:30] Zach: have a cold or something, so I was trying to come in strong, but yeah. I probably, I probably slowed down already.

[00:09:37] Victor: No, no, well, I'm not saying, I'm not saying you, I'm just saying like, man, I just want to like cozy up, you know, like crawling to, can we do this from bed? Can we record

[00:09:46] Olivia: Will you read us a story?

[00:09:47] Victor: Like, yeah, we could. Yeah. Zach, do you want to read us a story?

[00:09:51] Olivia: No, he's sick. It has to be 

[00:09:53] Victor: Oh, okay.

[00:09:54] Zach: Hehehe. Hehehe.

[00:09:54] Victor: you can, you can curl up.

[00:09:56] Olivia: Zach is sick. I'm pregnant. It has to be 

[00:09:58] Victor: All right. You're right. I'm the last man standing. So yeah, I

[00:10:02] Zach: Just read us the whole,

[00:10:04] Victor: guys like a bedtime story.

[00:10:05] Zach: read us the whole Dream Bible.

[00:10:07] Victor: There you go.


[00:10:09] Olivia: Oh my god, I would love to listen to that. Like just in a really, in Victor's voice actually, your voice would be 

[00:10:16] Victor: Yeah. Maybe I should, I need to partner with them. You

[00:10:19] Olivia: and just read that. You can do like a sleep with me Podcast thing like Scooter and just read dream Bible entries and muse about them. That's honestly great He should be doing that

[00:10:33] Victor: Yeah. New, new podcast guys. Um, dream with me 

[00:10:38] Zach: Yeah.

[00:10:38] Victor: wherever you get your pods.

[00:10:40] Zach: Have the contents already done for us. Just gotta

[00:10:42] Victor: Yeah.

[00:10:43] Olivia: Do we want to, um, do like dream stuff today?


[00:10:47] Zach: Yeah,

[00:10:47] Victor: Dream stuff?

[00:10:49] Olivia: Yeah.

[00:10:49] Zach: that is the conceit of the podcast.

God, I haven't had one in a minute.

[00:10:53] Victor: I had a dream that there's a lot more to it, but all I remember is that it was like, it was like spooky, spooky scary. It was like a red sky. And I found my dogs. I think both of them were experiencing this, but I remember really, like, feeling bad and, like, paying attention to one of our dogs. He was standing there, and it was Wimperand, because he was like, tangled up, but the way he was tangled up is that his eyes had gotten like, pulled out, and there was like this long, like, like, you know, strap, or whatever, of like, connecting his eye to his skull, and it was like, all tangled up in like, tree branches, like, like, bare tree branches, and he was just like, stuck, and we needed to help him, by like, going and like, Getting his eyes untangled, and then when I untangled them, they like slowly retracted back into his

[00:11:47] Olivia: Jesus.

[00:11:49] Victor: face.


[00:11:50] Zach: that's 


[00:11:52] Olivia: I think Red Sky is in the Dream Bible.

[00:11:55] Victor: bet 

[00:11:55] Zach: there's a few, a few different sky colors in there.

[00:11:58] Victor: 

A red sky represents a negative outlook for the future, fear, disaster, conflict, or deception. Believing the bad things will always continue to happen.

Fighting or trouble is on the horizon.

[00:12:11] Zach: Uh 

[00:12:12] Victor: Uh oh.

[00:12:12] Olivia: Doom. 

[00:12:13] Zach: in the Bible is not usually prophetic.

[00:12:15] Victor: Yeah.

[00:12:16] Olivia: Beli Does it say believing that trouble is on the horizon?

[00:12:20] Victor: Yeah. Believing the bad things will always continue to happen.

[00:12:24] Zach: And then it just says fighting or trouble is on the horizon. I guess that could be a sentence fragment that's like the second part of the first sentence.

[00:12:30] Victor: Yeah, I think it's that you think that. Or maybe that's, like, what's gonna happen. I don't know. We need to find a good prophetic dream bible. I'm

[00:12:38] Olivia: Yeah.

[00:12:39] Victor: tired of all this psychology shit. We need full blown, like, soothsaying.

[00:12:44] Zach: Yeah, that's what I thought dream interpretation was when I was like, I thought it was more like the horoscopes and the newspaper, uh, cause I had a dream about, uh, I think it was a white spider and I looked it up at like a book in the library and it said that someone was going to die,

[00:13:01] Victor: That's the problem with prophetic dream interpretation. It's like half of it is someone's gonna die, or you're gonna die, and then the other half is like, oh, you're gonna

[00:13:12] Zach: come into a bunch of money. 

[00:13:13] Olivia: Yeah.

money. Lots of money 

stuff in there. 

[00:13:17] Victor: Love, money, and death

[00:13:19] Olivia: hmm. Mm 

[00:13:19] Victor: are kind of the bread and butter of the whole prophetic industrial complex. Take our tax dollars out of fortune telling.

[00:13:31] Zach: Big Wiccan.

[00:13:32] Olivia: Yeah, do we want to dig into this dream more or do we want to do a different one?

[00:13:37] Victor: I don't think there's anything there. I was just throwing that out


[00:13:39] Olivia: seems like a pretty straightforward nightmare.

[00:13:43] Victor: Yeah, it was just a nightmare. Let's do one of yours, Liv.

[00:13:47] Olivia: Okay, I've got options.

[00:13:50] Victor: All

reliable over here. 

[00:13:55] Zach: Yeah. I had one a little while, a few weeks ago. It was like maybe the. The same as what Victor just shared. Just like a short thing. Uh, that I was, I was curious about this one symbol in it. Cause I can't figure out what it means. It was a sentient saw blade.

[00:14:14] Victor: Hmm. Okay.

[00:14:16] Zach: It was like a six inch in diameter, circular saw blade.

Um, it was like, evil in like a motherfucker kind of way. Like Chucky. Like it felt, it felt like it was possessed by Like a snide, smarmy serial killer. Like, no, it was metal. It was like,

[00:14:34] Olivia: No, I'm talking about that movie Rubber where it's like a tire that's like rolling through town murdering

[00:14:39] Zach: Oh, 

[00:14:39] Victor: Yeah, there's like a sentient tire that I think shoots lasers.

Yeah, Is that what it does? 

[00:14:44] Olivia: I don't know, but I had a dream like this and it was saw blades.

[00:14:48] Zach: was it really?

[00:14:49] Olivia: Yeah,

and Obama was 


[00:14:51] Zach: long ago?

[00:14:53] Olivia: It

was a while ago, but it was also like an alien dream.

But it was 


[00:14:57] Zach: Mine is probably

[00:14:58] Olivia: blades that were like rolling through 


[00:15:00] Zach: a multiple.

[00:15:01] Olivia: Yeah.

[00:15:02] Zach: Mine was definitely one. It was like a main character and it was like following me or in the dream. I moved houses several times and I kept feeling like it was. On its way and because it was such a like douchey kind of like villain character Like it would I felt like it was fucking with me and it could be under the floorboards just waiting for me to like Relax or something and I don't remember any like quotes But it had a lot of like one liners like I remember saying something about like you're only six inches in diameter You know, made some dick joke or something about six inches.

[00:15:36] Olivia: Hahaha.

[00:15:37] Zach: Um,

[00:15:38] Olivia: Which is above average, by the way.

[00:15:40] Zach: hell yeah.

[00:15:43] Zach: Trust every man knows what, what the average, what that stat is.

Yeah, so. I kept feeling like the saw blade was following me. Sorry, I didn't mean to hijack the episode. You were like,

[00:15:54] Olivia: No,

[00:15:54] Zach: thinking about what kind of dream you wanted to do and I was like, Oh yeah, I won. I thought it was short, but as I'm talking about it, I'm like, I think this dream was actually kind of long.

There's like multiple parts to it, or like, the saw blade was a character that stayed throughout the entire dream, you know what I mean? Like, I kept remembering it and being like, Oh shit, when's it gonna show up? and at one point I was like, I moved into a new house and I was like, proud of myself for being like a homeowner in a nice neighborhood.

And I, like, I was looking around at all the neighboring houses and I noticed there were a lot of middle aged white women talking to each other, like, you know, like a sea of Karens. There was like 15, middle aged blonde ladies, like, kind of like side eyeing me and talking to each other. And I was worried they were talking about me.

They're like, I was like, Oh, they don't think I belong in this neighborhood. Uh, and so I was like, Hey ladies, what's the hubbub? And they kind of like ignored me. I was like, uh, you don't have any, you haven't seen anything weird happening in this neighborhood, right? Like, uh, and they said, like, kind of catty, like, you mean like a sentient saw blade?

 Like, they were, I, and I got the sense that they were pissed that I moved in because I had an evil spirit following me trying to, like, saw my legs off. and it ended with me in my childhood home, like, having a, I, my sister and I, when we were kids, we used to have, like, quote unquote sleepovers. Obviously, we lived in the same house.

We were just like, one of us would sleep in the other's bedroom. And it was like that, like, I was in my sister's room. Cause we were, she wasn't actually in there, but I just, you know, dream, knew that I was there. That that's what that room was, and that I was gonna hang out with my sister, but I don't know where she was.

And I knew I had to go to sleep. and I was like, freaked out that the saw blade was gonna get me. What if I fell asleep? But I was like, I can't let it, like, this is always gonna be a thing. So I have to, I just have to go to sleep and hope for the best. And that was where it ended,

but I know I looked up saw or yeah, I don't think saw blade is on the dream Bible just saw and it's like all about tools and stuff. It feels like a very utilitarian thing. And so like, I have no, I have no theories on this, on this dream character.

[00:17:51] Victor: Cutting off some area of your life or a specific situation. Negatively, a saw may reflect strong bitterness, jealousy, or anger that is very motivated to stop a situation from happening ever again. It may also reflect a strong resentment that wants to cut off someone else's happiness.

[00:18:18] Zach: Yeah, I don't remember reading that negative section.

[00:18:21] Victor: That's interesting. I wonder what, like,

so you said you're 

[00:18:23] Zach: it to anything.

[00:18:24] Victor: moving into a new house? New stuff? I doubt

[00:18:27] Zach: Yeah, there's HOA in there. That's kind of what the vibe was of all the ladies.

[00:18:34] Victor: HOA is in the Dream Bible, but it would be very funny if it was.

[00:18:37] Zach: It's a real source of, contrition with a lot of people.

[00:18:42] Victor: yeah.

[00:18:43] Zach: You think there'd be a lot of HOA dreams out there.

Would you say your SAW dream was Olivia? Obama was an alien and he had an army of

[00:18:50] Olivia: No, there, there was like an alien invasion that was saw blades, my aliens never look like aliens. They're always like something else.

[00:19:01] Victor: sawblades,

[00:19:02] Olivia: But it was like, I was in this like kind of seaside village, place. And like the saw blades would just kind of roll through. And like, there was like one situation where they like. Rolled through and, like, sliced a kid in half on a bridge.

And, um, and then Obama came to, like, give a speech about the sawblades. I don't know, like, it was kind of like, you know, he was, like, visiting, like, this town that was suffering and was like, We're gonna do something about that. And then the last thing I remember was like being on the beach and watching like the aliens come and it was, uh, they were like coming down into the water and there were, it was, it kind of looked like a laser show.

[00:19:50] Zach: Sounds like some sort of metaphor for like a political issue. What is that?

[00:19:58] Victor: It's a, it's a big mason jar of soup.

[00:20:03] Zach: I would have never guessed soup. I don't know. I don't know what I thought. I thought it was like, oh yeah, it is a liquid. I thought it was like brown sugar or something.

[00:20:12] Victor: No, no soup. Olivia made soup. I didn't want to put it in the freezer, cause... I think, like, I think glass is brittle? I was like, Googling this after I decided to not put the soup away, because like,

[00:20:27] Zach: If the soup, if the soup expanded enough, it would shatter the, the jar.

[00:20:31] Victor: is that what it is? It's the expansion of the soup? I thought it was like, the temperature difference between like, the different parts of the glass. It's like, if it's too hot on the inside and too cold on the outside, it would like, shatter it.

[00:20:43] Zach: That could be a thing too. I don't know. I know that if you leave, like, a LaCroix in the freezer, the aluminum bursts because the liquid expands.

[00:20:52] Victor: Hmm. That got into my head when I was like, in elementary school, and I read some book about guys climbing like, Everest or something.

[00:21:15] Olivia: Fuck.

[00:21:16] Zach: That's a 

[00:21:16] Victor: I don't know if that's a true story, I think it is, but either


it's burned into my mind forever.

[00:21:22] Zach: That's fucked up.

[00:21:24] Olivia: I think I found the shortest Dream Bible entry.

[00:21:28] Zach: Jesus wept.

 Two baby shoes never worn.

[00:21:33] Olivia: Oh yeah, that's the saddest one. Blades. To dream of a blade represents separation or parting of ways.

[00:21:45] Victor: I don't know what I'm humming about.

[00:21:47] Zach: Yeah, there's a lot of stuff about cutting, cutting off, severing, but I can't think of, like, I haven't had to cut anyone out of my life in a long time. I'm not, I mean, it could be another work dream. I don't know. I've been looking at other jobs and, like,

[00:22:01] Victor: I don't know, Zach. I don't think you're having work dreams anymore. I think you're dreaming about something. Nah, I don't know. I don't know.

[00:22:07] Zach: historically, it's always a work dream with me. And then lately, you know, a lot of them have been about moving Shelby here.

[00:22:16] Victor: Yeah.

[00:22:17] Zach: big transition, I think it makes make sense. But so if it's one of those two, it's gotta be the work 

[00:22:23] Olivia: Wait, why does it have to be the work dream?

[00:22:26] Zach: the work camp. Well, Shelby and I are doing the opposite of severing ties, moving in together.

But I am thinking about, you know, I'm actively trying to get out of the job that I'm in the day job. Obviously not, not the not the cool job.

[00:22:43] Olivia: Sure.

[00:22:44] Zach: Hmm. But

[00:22:45] Olivia:

guess I could see that, I could see that playing in both ways. Like, Like, it's just a big, it's a big change. Like it doesn't necessarily like your things are being severed either way. Like that's just necessarily me. Let's not necessarily like a negative thing, but like your life you're, you're having like a big life change and like, you might be moving and,

[00:23:10] Zach: that but it feels like the opposite of severing. It feels like merging, you know what I 

[00:23:14] Olivia: Sure,

Yeah. I mean, I don't know how like symbols work, but

[00:23:19] Victor: how,


[00:23:20] Olivia: don't 

know, like I feel like it could, It could be that as much as it could be a work dream.

[00:23:27] Zach: I guess from the entries on saw and blade, I was just getting a lot of like, cutting toxic things out of your life, like, like, kind of, that's, I know that like, scissors are a big, like, big symbol in a lot of cultures that have to do with like, cutting away evil spirits, and I was getting like, that same vibe from the entries on sharp things,

or at least, that's, you know, my interpretation.

[00:23:52] Victor: Yeah, no, I mean, that makes sense. I, I think, I think what Olivia is trying to say is like, um, that like, um, it's even though you have positive feelings about the move and everything, it still isn't necessarily like there, there could still be like. some some complicated stuff happening, or like, um, maybe like, something about it's connected to something that happened in the past, and parties, and working through that, or whatever, so it's like, it still could be connected to moving stuff, or like, you, like, you can have a dream with negative stuff in it about a thing that you're excited about, and you can have a dream with a positive stuff in it about a thing that you're miserable about, or whatever, and it's like, it can all be kind of jumbled up, I think. Is that what you're trying to say? Yeah.

[00:24:38] Olivia: Yeah, uh, and like, 

[00:24:40] Victor: it would be like, kinda like, um, how people would have like, like a, like a cold feet dream or something about a wedding or whatever. It's like you wanna get married, but maybe you're having like a weird dream about it or something, you know, because it's

bringing something up for you. 

[00:24:54] Olivia: just like the other dreams that have been about the move have not just been like that. I mean, correct me if I'm wrong, but they haven't just been like happy, everything's great dreams. They've been like anxiety dreams. So, like, I guess my thought was just that, like, that possibly could be about anxiety about the move still.

[00:25:13] Victor: Or like Olivia, like, since she's gotten pregnant, she's started to have, like, occasional, like, me cheating on her

dreams. She had a dream of me cheating on her with, um, we had, like, a neighbor that was like a hundred.

[00:25:27] Olivia: No, he's a hundred and, he's a hundred and three.

[00:25:30] Zach: He?

[00:25:31] Olivia: Yeah.

[00:25:32] Victor: And he's still kicking, but he recently moved out and she had a dream that I cheated on her with his like 80 year old daughter

[00:25:40] Zach: Oh, I to say with him.

[00:25:43] Victor: Yeah. Um, but like, like that's just connected to like pregnancy anxiety or whatever. Right. It's not like a, it's not a


problem thing. A primal thing, 

[00:25:52] Olivia: like a primal thing in me that's like, well, he better stay around cause

I, I'm carrying his offspring,

but like, 

[00:26:00] Zach: you say that you read that that was common?

[00:26:02] Olivia: it's super common.



[00:26:04] Victor: and that doesn't mean that she has like a negative like feeling about me or

our relationship. It's just like it's connected to her complicated feelings about the pregnancy. Like the pregnancy makes her feel vulnerable even

though she's excited about it.

And that's where that comes from. 

[00:26:19] Olivia: Yeah. No. All I'm trying to say is like, like, I don't, I don't know that it's. We should jump to the conclusion that it's not that because that is the thing that is literally happening like next week for you. It would, it would surprise me if like,

[00:26:34] Victor: if, like,

[00:26:34] Olivia: if that wasn't,

I don't know, 

[00:26:35] Zach: Well, but yeah, I had this dream like four weeks ago.

[00:26:39] Olivia: sure.

[00:26:41] Victor: Yeah, I don't know, like, yeah.

[00:26:43] Zach: I don't even know if we should, jump to the conclusion that one of those two things that I tend to dream about 

[00:26:49] Victor: Right. 

[00:26:49] Zach: just easy to start with the things that you tend to dream about.

[00:26:53] Olivia: Sure. 

[00:26:54] Victor: Yeah.

No, sometimes I, I think it's easy for us to, like, yeah, we dream about the same stuff a lot, but then, like, We're kind of primed to expect us to be dreaming about certain things and so it's like I do wonder how much of it is like a chicken and egg thing like, um, it's still like therapeutic I think for us to like find some angle by which to talk about a thing that's been on our mind a lot or whatever but like I do wonder like how often are we naturally following the interpretation it just leads to the same place every time versus like well are we guiding it to where we expect to get right it's like. Like the tricky part of it's kind of we're kind of doing therapy work, right? And that is a that's a risk

That's Like,

a trap that you can fall into in therapy, right? Like I remember Reading or like I was in a class years ago and they talked about how like like there's there's like a problem in therapy where like if certain therapists like expect a thing to happen and Or like they think this is all over the place and like that they're like biased to believe a certain thing Then whenever they work with somebody they always guide that person in that place So like


[00:28:12] Zach: Like confirmation bias. 

[00:28:14] Victor: Yeah. Yeah confirmation bias is like a huge risk in psychology, right? So it's like there was the thing I think is in the 80s. There was like this big like satanic panic thing and then Like a big thing in psychology was this belief that like all these people had like repressed Like sexual abuse memories of like being abused by like cultists and shit and like there was like all of this Attempt to get people like if your therapist is sitting there like this person has depression That means that they were sexually abused and have repressed that memory and that's where depression comes from So we just need to figure out how to get them to remember that they were sexually abused and voila We've like click cracked the thing with their depression Depression can come from other places, but if that's what your psychologist thinks or your therapist thinks

They're gonna take you down that road every time and then you can have like false memories or false recovered. Do you guys get what I'm talking about?

I'm rambling a lot, but like, so anyway, are we doing that here? You know what I mean? Like. 

[00:29:16] Zach: like cops trying to get a confession out of somebody because they already decided that they did it and they just need evidence.

[00:29:22] Victor: Exactly, yeah, 

it's like, when you're playing with something kind of, uh, open to interpretation, you run this big risk of like, well, you're gonna twist any evidence you get to lead you back to the conclusion you're seeking to find, right?

[00:29:37] Zach: Yeah, that's why I think this dream was, like, perplexing to me, because I've had, like, a few weeks to think about it and I still haven't gotten nowhere. I don't know if it's about an event or a thing in my life. It feels like it's about me personally, like some kind of personality trait or something.

[00:29:53] Victor: That makes sense.

[00:29:55] Zach: Cause it's like it has a part that takes place in the future, like an optimistic future where I'm like successful, even though like I feel self conscious that I don't belong in this like successful setting.

It was still like positive other than being followed by the murderous, uh, sentient saw blade. Uh, and then there's a part that was like reminiscent of the past when my childhood home, my sister and I having sleepovers. But it was like weirdly ominous and my sister wasn't actually there. So they seem to span decades and feelings and situations, but the common denominators, there's always this like little circular motherfucker trying to like take my ankles out.

[00:30:35] Victor: That actually, that like, that feels like there's something there, right? Because like, a lot of the time we are carrying around like our old trauma or our old negative experiences or things that have made us, like. A little jaded or a little negative or a little like warped as people, you know, and like, so they're like, it makes sense to me to have like an internal conflict of like, maybe life is getting better.

You see yourself moving in like a brighter direction or whatever. That could be like where the like shining house on the hill or whatever could be like you being excited about moving to Shelby, you being excited about the direction your life is going. And then like the saw, could, it says it's like, uh, bitterness, jealousy, anger, motivated to stop a situation from ever happening again, right?

So it's like,

that could be like past stuff that you're dragging into this new future with you, right?

Like, you're not coming into it pure and clean, you're, you're not coming into your future

like weightless. 

[00:31:39] Zach: kind of self sabotage theme.

[00:31:42] Olivia: Or just like, just like 

[00:31:44] Victor: stuff 

[00:31:44] Olivia: that you're carrying around or like haven't like fully dug into yet. But it's like. It's also just like, obviously everybody always has that stuff. Like nobody has ever like not carrying 



of thing around. So it's like, maybe the stream just points to an awareness of the things that, um, that you are bringing to 


new phase in your life. If that's what this is about at all.

[00:32:10] Zach: Yeah.

[00:32:10] Victor: Like, you and, you and me have, have some similarities and, like, one of them is, like, we have the work drive, we have the, like, external validation drive of, like, I need to accomplish these, like. Out in the world goals and then I'll feel a certain way or then I'll have accomplished blah blah blah or whatever. And like something that's difficult for me to do and probably difficult for you to do is like slow down. Like focus on like the inner work. Look at the stuff that's like kind of been hanging over your head for a long time that you don't know what to do with and like do the like kinda slow, miserable work of trying to, trying to. Work through some of that shit, you know, so like I don't know like maybe there's some of that for you I don't know. I like there probably is for me and I'm not willing to think about it

[00:33:09] Zach: I was, when we, I don't remember where we were at when we actually started airing episodes, but when we started recording this podcast, I know I was talking a lot about how I didn't, like, I was resistant to dating,

[00:33:21] Victor: Yeah,

[00:33:23] Zach: because I wanted to like sort my shit out in, in many ways, like, especially like financially, like I wanted to have my feet on the ground and not that I don't right now, but like, I wanted to be further than this.

[00:33:35] Victor: right

[00:33:36] Zach: Uh, I wanted to have all the healthy habits and like, have done all the therapy, like I wanted to be like a perfect human. Um, I wasn't framing it that way at the time. Uh, I was being a little bit more realistic about it, but still pretty like, I'll find love when I'm good and ready for it. Like, kind of mindset.

And I was just talking to my dad about this the other day. I'm, I was expressing like, gratitude for, you know, getting together with Shelby now. Cause I could have.

I could have waited forever trying to be like perfect in a, like in a perfect situation as my mind deemed it to, to even start looking for a relationship. Um, and instead this really great one came along, but there's some self consciousness that comes along with that. You know, some stuff is like, Oh, well, oh shit.

My, I didn't want you to see my bank account looking like this, but you weren't supposed to come along this soon. You know what I mean?

[00:34:27] Olivia: Yeah. It's almost like what, what you're describing kind of feels to me like, Like a way to evade, Some vulnerability and some, like, particular kinds of intimacy, like, I feel like intimacy, like, is really about, like, being able to be seen as you are, right?

And, like, it feels a little bit like a, a fear of that, right?

Um. And like, being like, well, if I can like sort out all my shit, then they don't have to see My stuff, you know what I mean?

[00:34:59] Victor: Yeah, when we've talked about like How poop dreams are like processing negativity and like how like your relationship with other people being there Is like connected to like your vulnerability of kind of being a normal person

I guess like so the poop metaphor would be you're trying to become a person that does not poop Before you start

[00:35:23] Zach: Yeah, and I even, I had, I had that dream a while back about pooping in front of Shelby and her being like, cool with it,

[00:35:30] Olivia: Yeah,

[00:35:31] Zach: you know what I mean, which definitely played it, played into that. but yeah, that's what I was talking to my dad about, that I'm, I'm, I'm glad that I wasn't allowed the opportunity to, or no, that's a weird way to put it, but afforded the opportunity to, to fall in love before, you know, I'm, I'm grateful that I wasn't totally in control of, of my.

dating situation and that I didn't turn away, uh, uh, an awesome thing just because I was, um, embarrassed or not ready to be vulnerable about certain things. before Shelby, I just been in like one relationship in particular is the last, the last long one, the, uh, three years it was where I, I, um, how do I put it?

It's, it, um,

I feel like I was made to feel like ashamed of certain things. And so, like, I don't think I had a problem with vulnerability before that, but like certain weaknesses were turned into like ammunition

[00:36:34] Olivia: Yeah,

[00:36:34] Victor: Yeah

[00:36:35] Zach: by this person. And, 

[00:36:37] Olivia: of sense.

[00:36:37] Zach: it was really hard to struggle with anything in life in front of this person. Um, and I didn't want to go through that again.

So it took me, realizing that Shelby is not this person at all to, to start to be cool with, um, being open about certain things.

Specifically struggling in front of each other, but it's, yeah, go ahead. Sorry.

[00:37:00] Victor: Sorry, no, please. I'm not trying to get you. Yeah

[00:37:03] Zach: No, it's just like, you should be on the same team in the struggle. You know what I mean? Like it should be you and your partner against the struggle. Uh, not them watching you struggle and, and like getting upset when you lose, like, like they had money on you, you In a football game or whatever.

[00:37:19] Victor: Yeah But like a lot of the stuff that you were focused on, um, as far as like how to get, how to improve yourself was like kind of externally focused of like, well, if I have the better job or like the better income, or if I have like the good routine and like the clean habits and everything, and all of that is external to you,

you know, it's your, it's your external world. Um, but like, What put you there was, I am a person who chose to spend three years with a person that made me feel this way, and such and such, right? And like, that is a different, like, working through like, how you ended up there, why you stayed, what made you vulnerable to that, why you're scared of ending up in that again, is like, A different kind of work and it doesn't get solved by the better job and the like good sleep routine and stuff It's like it's its own thing and like this is a thing that olivia and I both kind of are familiar with we both like like we're in in like not good stuff before and like like when When we found each other And we found, like, a good relationship that worked and that didn't have, like, the toxic baggage that, that, you know, had been a problem in past relationships. It's not because we were, like, suddenly, like,

perfect enlightened beings capable of, capable of true love. It's like, no, I'm still the guy that made, like, you know, terrible relationship decisions for years. And, um... Like get getting to a place where, uh, like that, that is work I know I need to do

is Like sorting through.

like the therapy stuff that I w will not go to therapy to deal with, but if I did, it would help me,


[00:39:18] Zach: We talked to this at the top of the episode, like intentionally doing stuff against your own best interest. Cause you don't want to see you like talk yourself out of it. Somehow

[00:39:29] Victor: yes, but that's totally different than what I'm doing here. Let me explain why. No. Um, Yeah, no, but like, so those are those are different things, right? And so like if you are in the same situation that we're in where it's like, oh I've ended up in this this good Relationship that doesn't have the problems that I was in before You are still the guy that didn't like like did the stuff in the past that haunts you, right? So it's like just because you're in a good relationship doesn't mean you've worked through The reasons why you ended up in a bad relationship before And that is something that you could probably do something about, or you could just ignore forever. Um,

that's what I'm doing?

You could just like, not ever think about that.

[00:40:15] Zach: you know, I sort of had an epiphany about this sort of thing when I was living in Seattle, I was at work, it was after the job we had together, Olivia. Um, so fresh off the heels of a, of a disaster, uh, professionally, um, but it's, you know, at my study, whatever job plugging away at it and just, I was doing something mindless.

So I started thinking about this past relationship that scarred me. And before that one, I had intentionally taken like a good chunk of time. To do the classic, I'm working on myself thing. Like, I'm just going to be single and do me. And I was like, man, I did that work. Like, how did I still end up in, in the, like, just like slaloming down that hill, pass all those red flags.

Um, and then I, it just sort of hit me. Oh, once I was like, well, before her, I had just gotten dumped a bunch for being, you know, whatever, whatever the things that I truly did perceive as like my fault, like they were like flaws. Like I didn't, whatever. I was just young and stupid in those early relationships.

Um, and so I didn't blame those people at all for dumping me and I worked on that stuff. And I, but in doing that, I prepared myself to, to try and be a good partner, but I didn't prepare myself to have to dump a bad one. and so I went into it like thinking I could fix anything or, or like. As long as I'm not the problem, then like, we can persevere, whatever I do, like, cutting someone out was never on my radar because I never had to do that before.

I was always the dumpy. Um, and so then between her and Shelby, that was my like, you know, early days of the pod where I was like. Not willing to date. Cause I didn't want to like have to dump anyone. I didn't. And when I did like go on dates and stuff, I was, I was so trigger happy to cut things off before they even started.

Cause I was like Seinfeld levels of petty about stuff. I was like, no, no second date because whatever, like little thing I was like, I don't want to, let's just stop this here before it gets harder to, to like, have to dump you later when I actually see a red flag.


[00:42:29] Victor: Man, dating sucks.

[00:42:31] Zach: yeah,

[00:42:32] Victor: terrible. 

[00:42:33] Zach: you guys taking a moment today to appreciate that? You're totally done with that

[00:42:37] Victor: Every 

[00:42:38] Olivia: day. We say that all the time. man, if Victor dies, I'm just gonna be like a weird hermit. I don't want to go out there again.

[00:42:46] Zach: That's what, that's what, uh, Shelby and I talk about.

[00:42:50] Victor: Yeah, man, I'm done. I'm

[00:42:52] Zach: her, her thing is the, um, I don't know if it's a real thing or if it's something she's just made up, but, uh, she calls it the weed nunnery. Like she's just gonna become married to God and smoke weed all the time. If I die,

[00:43:05] Victor: Man, she should start that anyway, you


[00:43:08] Zach: it's not a thing. Yeah, it sounds kind of sick.

[00:43:10] Victor: Is that

[00:43:11] Zach: There should definitely be a movie about it, like a Wes Anderson movie 

[00:43:13] Victor: I want him and Seth Rogen to go in on a project together.

[00:43:20] Zach: The Weed Nunnery. It's like The Monks Who Make Beer, but it's like the lady, like the Jane Austen version of that.

[00:43:28] Olivia: The nuns who grow.

[00:43:29] Zach: The Nuns Who Grow, that'd be a great title.

[00:43:31] Olivia: Yeah.

[00:43:32] Victor: That's good.

[00:43:33] Olivia: But so, does that resonate with this dream or do you think it's, is there something else here that you wanted to dig into?

[00:43:40] Zach: Yeah, well, yeah, anytime we like, even if it feels like a tangent, like we didn't, we're not strictly adhering to like dream interpret, but like, we're clearly going in a direction that feels like resonant and related and like, if there's something there to talk about. It feels like it definitely was definitely worth talking about, but it's probably also applicable.

You know what I mean?

[00:44:05] Olivia: a yes.

[00:44:07] Victor: Yeah, no,

I know what you mean. I mean, like whether, whether that's all there is in this dream or not, it's like what we, what we think we see is like, well, you got this conflict between like bright and better future and like maybe old baggage or old resentments or never let this thing happen again or whatever.

Like, well, okay, so what is there? Let's talk about that.

And then we have a conversation about that. And

[00:44:31] Zach: Yeah. I'm saying,

[00:44:32] Victor: if that's the thing, but.

[00:44:33] Zach: I guess what I was trying to say is I don't, I still don't think I fully like understand the mechanics of the symbology or like exactly what the dream was trying to say. but where it got us to conversationally, I definitely think it's about that. Somehow, somehow, like that all, it, it, it turned into a conversation because it, that it felt resonant.

[00:44:51] Victor: Well, so we could try and try and like, go back through it

with that as the lens. If we want to keep digging into this one, I don't know if you guys want to keep plowing along. What do you think, Zach?

[00:45:04] Zach: Um, yeah, maybe a little, I'm just,

I'm just curious what, like what's, what's bugging me still is like, what is that saw blade? Cause it felt like such a character in the dream, this mean 


[00:45:17] Victor: Yeah, you want to Yeah. Use our second tool.

[00:45:20] Olivia: you're

I mean, you're

calling it a character. It kind of feels 


[00:45:24] Victor: it's got personality. Well, tell us a little bit about like the one-liners and stuff and like what,

[00:45:28] Zach: you know, I remember what it was saying, but like, like I don't have any direct quotes, but, 

[00:45:34] Victor: was it like quippy, was it like funny

or was it like threatening, scary things or?

[00:45:40] Zach: I think I compared it to Chucky from Child's Play,

[00:45:43] Victor: Hmm.

[00:45:43] Zach: um, when I brought this up for my first because that's, that's what it made me think of is like that kind of like smarmy evil. Um,

[00:45:51] Victor: Like a dead eye kind of a,

[00:45:53] Zach: yeah,

like definitely violent, but kind of sardonic too, um, which is like in the dream. That was the scary part is I never knew if it was under the floorboards or if it was six miles away. like there was a, the, a sense of. Of being fucked with throughout the whole thing.

[00:46:08] Victor: And, like, did it seem to have, like, a motivation? Did it just, like, want to hurt you? Like, was it going after people generally?

[00:46:16] Zach: No, just me.

[00:46:17] Olivia: do you, do you want to gestalt It 

[00:46:19] Zach: I, it kind of seems like the, yeah, like this is ripe for that.

[00:46:23] Olivia: yeah, 

[00:46:23] Victor: I just thought getting some context was good before we dove in.


[00:46:26] Zach: Oh, for sure. 

[00:46:27] Olivia: questions that are one of the six. So

[00:46:29] Zach: Yeah. What about motivation?

[00:46:31] Olivia: its motivation.

[00:46:32] Victor: why don't you read the questions, Liv?

[00:46:34] Olivia: Okay. Let me pull them up.

[00:46:37] Zach: To me, the saw blade, I have to turn my hat backwards.

 Yes. Feels right.

[00:46:42] Olivia: All right. Get, go ahead and. Center yourself. Get into character.

[00:46:47] Zach: Okay. Uh,

[00:46:48] Olivia: you you ready? As the Sawblade, my purpose is...

[00:46:54] Zach: to ruin him.

[00:46:57] Olivia: My goal is...

[00:46:59] Zach: I don't know how to like boil it down into a phrase, but I guess what? Jump to mind was, uh,

To not make it easy

Or to make, or to make it messy, you know there

[00:47:11] Olivia: My biggest fear is...

[00:47:14] Zach: I want to say him realizing that I won't do it.

[00:47:17] Olivia: I love...

[00:47:19] Zach: I don't.

[00:47:20] Olivia: I hate...

[00:47:21] Zach: That's the Like quippy nature. I wanted to just answer yes Like I am hate like incarnate

[00:47:30] Olivia: I desire or wish...

[00:47:33] Zach: to spread chaos

[00:47:35] Olivia: Alright.

[00:47:37] Zach: But you know what's interesting about that exercise is that um,

And I, I, I think you'll know what I'm talking about. Sometimes it feels like one answer is so true that it like reveals that the other ones aren't completely

[00:47:51] Olivia: Yeah,

[00:47:52] Zach: right. You know what I mean?

[00:47:53] Olivia: felt true to you?

[00:47:54] Zach: That I'm afraid that he'll know I'm, I forgot how I phrased it. I'm afraid that he'll know I'm full of shit.

[00:47:59] Victor: Yeah, him realizing that I won't do it, how he phrased it,

[00:48:03] Zach: Yeah. So like, then I wanted to go back and change. What did I say for purpose?

[00:48:08] Victor: ruin him.

[00:48:10] Zach: So after I, after I got to the fear question, I wanted to go back and change that answer to like, to make him think I'll ruin him. There's like, it's like a fear driven, like thing. Like the goal is more to inspire fear and cause him, Zach, the person that I'm dedicated to like messing with is to cause fear and anxiety.

Cause him to fuck things up for himself. But I, I'm not actually gonna do it otherwise, I would have, if I, as a, as the saw blade actually had the power, um, to just cut there to like, yeah, cut. There's achilles tendon. Like, do all the things he's afraid I'm, I'm, I'm gonna do then I would,

[00:48:52] Olivia: Do you think


[00:48:53] Zach: not the,

[00:48:53] Olivia: oh, sorry, go ahead,

[00:48:55] Zach: I was gonna say that, that's just not the, the rules of engagement or whatever the game I'm playing.

 It's not about actual violence, it's about mind fuckery,

[00:49:03] Olivia: I was gonna say, like, do you think it's fear itself?

[00:49:07] Zach: the saw blade.

[00:49:09] Olivia: Yeah.

[00:49:09] Zach: Yeah. Yeah, or something under that banner, like,

[00:49:15] Victor: Anxiety.

[00:49:16] Zach: I was just, yeah, that's exactly what I was going to say.

Because that is, that is kind of what it feels like to have GAD. It does feel like this, like, trickster god is following you around, like, whispering bullshit in your ear, like, What if this elevator wire snapped and you just died right now? It's like, why would you tell me that? Why would you put that intrusive thought in there?

It does feel like... impish when you like personify your anxiety.

[00:49:39] Victor: yeah. So do you feel not to like put you back into it if you're feeling out of it, but like, do you feel like a reason, like, like the purpose is to cause fear, but does it feel like there's a why behind that? Why cause fear?

[00:49:55] Zach: As the saw blade, yeah, it feels like that's why I exist. If I didn't do that, then I wouldn't, I would have no reason for being.

If it, yeah, it feels like, um,

spiritual, that's not the right word, but like, yeah, preordained. It feels like, um, like an inherent reality of the universe sort of reason.

[00:50:16] Olivia: Did you say your sister was, your sister was in this dream, right?

[00:50:21] Zach: No, I never saw her in the dream. I was in her bedroom in our childhood home.

[00:50:25] Olivia: Okay.

[00:50:27] Zach: We were supposed to do like, uh, one of our classic sleepovers where we just, you know, share a room instead of sleeping in separate rooms so we can like, stay up all night talking about whatever, Spice Girls, Gilmore Girls, whatever we were into.

[00:50:40] Olivia: I feel like, um, in your Batman of Snakes dream, your sister had like a really strong, she was a symbol

for you? 

[00:50:48] Zach: Yeah.

[00:50:49] Olivia: Does that hold true for, like, do you see that, like, connecting over to this dream?

[00:50:56] Zach: Yeah, potentially, because I'm trying to remember what the symbol was. Like, I saw her as like, uh, aspirational, right? Like somebody... the, my mind's picture of, of someone with their shit together.

[00:51:07] Olivia: Yeah.

[00:51:08] Zach: And in this dream, 

[00:51:08] Olivia: there was, like, a fearless element to her, too. I don't know if that word came up, but that's what I was just thinking. I

don't know if I'm just trying to make that apply, but...

[00:51:17] Zach: that's interesting cause I was in her room, but she wasn't there. But that's where the dream ended with me being like, well, I just got to sleep. It's the, the saw blade is going to kill me or it's not, uh, I'm going to be miserable if I don't. I have to sleep. I just have to accept the fear of this saw blade and just go to sleep.

It's not going to make matters better by staying up all night.

[00:51:36] Victor: mean that acceptance of fear is like a way to deal with anxiety. You know, like if you're worrying about something, Saying like, well, can I do anything about it? If not, I'm not going to worry about it, you know.

[00:51:50] Zach: I do have to fly on a plane and then drive on the interstate within a week of each other here coming up and both of which are like, phobia is a strong word, but they both gimme high levels of anxiety.

[00:52:03] Victor: Yeah.

[00:52:04] Zach: Flying is actually easier 'cause I don't have to do anything. I mean, she, Shelby would do, Shelby will be doing a lot of the driving on the way back, but I'm not gonna make her do all of it.

you know, I'll drive when I can, but when you're driving you really have to like be present when you're flying. You can. Meditate, you know, or try to, but anyway, my, my point was that, um, that is like the only way I can fly is by like, I have to get to the airport early order a beer from the, from the, whatever the bar in the airport.

And then just like over the course of that beer, except death, it's the only way I can fly fearlessly is like. Coming in terms with like mortality. And then when I get to where I'm going, I'm like, Hey, I'm alive, sick.

[00:52:49] Victor: So does, so does seeing this thing as just like general anxiety, does that feel... Like the whole answer does it feel like there's more there

[00:52:59] Zach: No, that really hits

like the fact that it can't actually do anything, but it's, it's whole reason for being is to be this little thing that is scary because it's always around the corner and always threatening you that's anxiety, but. I don't know why I have this dream, you know, I'm always anxious about like a number of things so I guess it could just be, you know, a combination of those that made me have a dream about the concept of anxiety, but that feels right.

[00:53:33] Victor: And like moving into the new house or whatever is like you've you've got like some exciting things on the horizon or changes or whatever

So Maybe trying to square, like... that is this old part of me that causes me so much trouble Like how does that how is that going to look in this new? Situation that

you're looking forward to you know

[00:53:56] Zach: Yeah, there's a fear of fucking it up. And there was also a fear of like, it's funny that it was like this like HOA sort of like flock of Karens that I was concerned about, like I was, I was worried that they Would not accept me because they knew about the saw blade and so I think there's a an embarrassment around around having generalized anxiety in there like I don't like I don't like to tell people that like I'm afraid to eat brownies because one time I had a bad pot experience like I have a lot of little silly phobias that like don't 

[00:54:40] Olivia: my favorite one, by the way.

[00:54:41] Zach: you know a lot of silly little phobias that like don't make me feel like Very manly, you know, it's, uh, that's kind of what that part of the dream felt like that, that, uh, this, this fear of like succeeding, making it somewhere.

And then somebody being like, you know,

of having, of having like an imposter syndrome moment and been being embarrassed in front of like other successful people. Because I have this, uh, thing.

[00:55:10] Victor: Yeah, I think that's really interesting that like the better place or like the place you're excited about is not a safe place Right. It's like it's full of judgment and

like they don't like you there and The thing that's haunting you is like making you not fit in there or like get along there You know, so it's like like this this idea that like Maybe you get the things that you want, but that they will, the things you want will reject you because you are not perfect or you're carrying around this negative thing.

[00:55:47] Zach: Yeah. Or that I won't be able to handle them because of all my little phobias.

[00:55:52] Victor: Yeah.

[00:55:53] Zach: The, you know,

created this little bubble of, you know, I have, I have my, my world, my routine, my parameters that I'm comfortable in. Um, but that's not where I want to be for. I don't, I don't want to, I don't want to be here. I want to like move forward and move on to bigger and better things. But I do think about that.

Like, what if, what if I blow an opportunity because I'm anxious and I can't bring myself to do something that requires. I don't know, heights or small spaces or thing, you know, things that activate me that I can generally just get around and, and avoid in day to day life. What if I blow a big opportunity because I have to do something that makes me anxious.

[00:56:36] Victor: I would watch Star Trek as a kid and for some reason like every other episode there was like some like vitally important life or death situation where somebody had to crawl into a vent. To try and, like,

climb to some, like, cut off part of the ship to solve a problem. And it really, like, burned into my brain as, like, a nightmare scenario.


[00:56:57] Zach: claustrophobia?

[00:56:58] Victor: yeah, I did Yeah, and,

like, my, my I think I've I have a real anxiety about the idea of having to, like, crawl through, like, a ventilation, uh, a ventilation system. Plus rats. Yeah,

[00:57:13] Olivia: I was going to say, don't you have a thing about crawling in a space with rats?

[00:57:17] Victor: That's a thing. I don't know.

I don't know. 

[00:57:18] Olivia: doesn't like their tiny hands.

[00:57:21] Zach: Oh, I think 

[00:57:22] Olivia: dated a girl with 20 rats.

[00:57:24] Victor: It didn't start as 20 rats, but by the end there were 20 rats, yeah. 

[00:57:28] Zach: yeah, small space. Those, the crawling through the vent thing that was big in the eighties, 

[00:57:33] Victor: Yeah. 

[00:57:35] Zach: I also had a similar fear, but it came from, uh,

die Hard.

[00:57:39] Victor: Yeah,

[00:57:39] Zach: That's an of the movie. I was

[00:57:41] Victor: it, uh, it hasn't happened yet, but I know, like, one day I'm gonna be called upon to crawl through a tiny vent in a life or death situation, and, um, someone's gonna die.

[00:57:52] Olivia: I think I could do a vent, but like you ever see those videos of people like. Crawling into really tight little caves.

[00:58:00] Victor: the spelunking,

[00:58:01] Olivia: Yeah, no,


shit's not absolutely not okay.

Like, you'll see ones where I've seen videos of pe like, a guy in a cave with his face Like, he's literally, like, laying down and his, like, face is, like, pinned between the ceiling and the ground.

And it's like, what are you doing?

[00:58:19] Zach: Yeah. 

[00:58:19] Olivia: Go back! 

[00:58:21] Zach: I, I, can see my heart rate going up on my Fitbit as you just talk about that.

[00:58:25] Olivia: It's no good. People aren't meant to go down there. This is for rats only.

[00:58:31] Victor: But like, I mean, the, the, the big revelation that you got out of, um, distalting the, the dream or like, um, uh, the saw blade is the same revelation you came to at the end of the dream where you just, you had to accept the fear and do what you needed to do either way. And then, like, the saw blade interpretate, like, the perspective of the saw blade is, like, Oh, don't, don't let him, uh, stop fearing me, because fear is the only thing that's there.

There's no substance behind the fear.

[00:59:06] Zach: Right. Yeah. Yeah. The feeling at the end of the dream was like,

Similar to what I'm just having. a bad anxiety day, and I would like to call into work and just stay near my bed, in case I have a panic attack, but it's like, if I did that every time that I was feeling that way, I would not be able to function in society. 

[00:59:27] Victor: No. 

[00:59:28] Zach: so there are, yeah, there are a lot of days where it's like, well, I might have a panic attack, I might feel better.

I'm just gonna have to see what happens and do my best to not have a panic attack.

[00:59:36] Victor: Yeah, it feels like this is your brain maybe trying to tell you something about the nature of that anxiety, right? Like, because, maybe, maybe you'll be anxious the way you are today forever for the rest of your life and you'll be like an old man in a nursing home going like, Huh, what's that? But, um, maybe, maybe not.

[00:59:57] Zach: Do y'all smell burnt toast?

Every time someone makes toast, I have a mini panic attack. I'm like, y'all smell that, right?

[01:00:08] Victor: yeah, so that, that could get worse with age or, um, you might also, you know, that might change over time or become something that's less, less of a constant, you know? So like, this feels like your brain trying to tell you things about your anxiety that you know consciously, but maybe you don't know in your gut, which is like that a lot of it's in your head, not actually going to hurt you. Like, you will be fine. Dragging yourself to work is not gonna kill you, even when you feel like it might. That kind of stuff, you know? Yeah, 

[01:00:41] Zach: Yeah, that's the cool thing about the gestalt method is when you can use it to put yourself in the shoes of the, what in the dream seems to be like an adversary. Um, because the whole philosophy behind it is that all the characters are you, so like if, if you have an adversary in a dream, It's still you.

They're like, what are you being your own enemy about right now?

[01:01:04] Victor: Yeah.

[01:01:05] Zach: It's the question that I feel like it's attempting to answer.

[01:01:08] Victor: Yeah, and like, anxiety is a part of you. And it is a part of you that is trying to protect you. It's just like, it doesn't know what it's doing. It's, it's misfiring, you know? It's like, it's like a, like a bad immune response or something. Thank

[01:01:26] Zach: Yeah. I'll never, I'll never understand people who like go bungee jumping. People who like, don't have enough, like they're scraping the bottom of the adrenaline barrel for fun because they just don't have enough naturally occurring. I'm like having that shit fire off. Because I got a phone call.

[01:01:44] Olivia: See I like I could see myself doing that or like going skydiving and like,

[01:01:50] Victor: you.

[01:01:50] Olivia: for me, it's not the adrenaline. I, I don't actually love the adrenaline, but it's like, cool have done it and to be doing it, like, I don't know, just like

[01:02:00] Victor: the

[01:02:01] Olivia: the experience of like falling from the sky and then like being fine is like, I don't know, I, I think I want to experience that.

 Yeah, I don't know. I don't actually like the adre adrenaline. I don't like the feeling of when you just jump, like that's not... Fun for me and making myself do it is really hard. I've done

some like cliff jumping and stuff, but like once

you do it, it's kind of a good feeling.

[01:02:25] Zach: You want to have, because some people do enjoy the adrenaline, but you want to have gotten through the adrenaline in order to have had the experience

[01:02:33] Olivia: Yeah. Yeah. I don't think I'm an adrenaline junkie, but I, I do kind of like doing those things. Um,

yeah, I think for, for slightly different reasons than some people. Yeah.

[01:02:44] Zach: Yeah. I would have to conquer so many other smaller fears before I got to that,

[01:02:49] Victor: Yeah,

getting in the plane. 

[01:02:51] Zach: Yeah. I mean, yeah, that's where I'm at. Like With a lot of things that I don't want to do because they make me anxious. I have to ask myself a question of like, do I actually have to do this? And like with, you know, skydiving, that's an extreme example.

Obviously. No, I don't 

have to 

[01:03:06] Olivia: don't have a lot of people like there there's probably not a benefit. To a lot of people, you know?

I don't think it's like, that's just like universally like a sign that you've like,

[01:03:17] Zach: Even if I had no fear about it, like, I just don't think I would think it's that cool to have done. You know what I mean? Like, it's not like something I. Even like deep down want to do. Like there are things that I think are cool that I would have to get over a certain amount of fear to accomplish. but that's not one of them, but then there are things that like, like Victor just said, like just getting on the plane that does affect day to day life.

If I let my phobia of planes keep me from getting on a plane, that affects the quality of my just normal boilerplate life. I want to be able to go see people and travel and, without having to buy an expensive bus ticket and take several days to get there or whatever. so that is one that like, yeah, it's about picking, choosing your battles sometimes.

I'm very cognizant of the fact that I don't want anxiety to call the shots in my life.

[01:04:04] Victor: Mmm.

[01:04:05] Zach: and it feels like that's what this dream was about, especially with the way it ended. Like it was about that consciously. Um, but it feels like the thing that my subconscious was trying to tell me is that

What the anxiety is, is ultimately powerless. It's, it is just fear. it feels like this snide little jackass that like wants to sabotage things, it wants to ruin things. Uh, and it can, if I let it, but it doesn't have to because it ultimately is just part of me, 

[01:04:31] Victor: yeah, if you can like, uh, picture your anxiety when it's talking to you, it's like, Hey, you're just an evil, anthropomorphic saw blade. 

I don't need to listen to you. out of here, Chuckie Blade.

[01:04:44] Zach: Chalky blade.

Thank you for listening to the Jung and the restless. 

[01:04:50] Olivia: You can follow us on social media at the Jung and the restless pod and submit your dreams for interpretation to the Jung and the restless pod at Gmail.

[01:04:59] Victor: And as we always say,

What's your girth worth? 

Recent Episodes

May 21, 24

62. Yawning to Assert Dominance

May 07, 24

61. Getting Torqued at the Gas Pump

Apr 23, 24

60. Too Close to the Veil