36. Stages of Grief

TRIGGER WARNING: this episode is heavy. The dream team spends the majority of this episode trying to tackle a series…...

TRIGGER WARNING: this episode is heavy. The dream team spends the majority of this episode trying to tackle a series of dreams from a listener that have to do with the passing of his wife. In between trying not to cry, they get into pool dreams, cardinal directions, and Face/Off. 

About Dream Bible:

Dream Bible is a free online A to Z dream dictionary dedicated to helping people understand the meaning of their dreams. Unlike other dream interpretation websites or books we extensively research dream symbols by interviewing people about the events occurring in their lives at the time of their dreams.  Inspired by the work of Gillian Holloway Ph.D, we are using a database of over 350,000 dream reports to create the world's most practical dream dictionary based on the waking life experiences of regular people.


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Episode Transcript

36. Stages of Grief

[00:00:00] Zach: Welcome to The Jung and the Restless. I'm Zach. I'm Olivia. 

[00:00:04] Victor: And I'm Victor. And this is the podcast where if you smell something, say nothing. Gorgeous. Now I lay me down to sleep I dreamt I had a soul to keep And if I die before I wake Will that dream just go on for its own sake? Yeah, I

[00:00:30] Zach: haven't been, uh, remembering a lot of dreams lately. For whatever reason. I'm still on this early morning schedule, I think it might have something to do with that. Like, I haven't Adjusted to my new, like, REM pattern or whatever. 

[00:00:43] Olivia: Are you kind of like leaping out of bed in the morning? Like, are you trying, are you like not 

[00:00:47] Zach: lingering?

Yeah, kinda. And I'm going straight to the gym and like, there's a, there's a whole routine around that cause I bring a bag and shower at the gym. So I have to like remember X, Y, and Z, you know, like I go straight to thinking about practical shit. Yeah, you're just drowning your dreams. But, oh, it's funny you say drowning, because the ones that I have been remembering lately, I haven't been, I can't recall any plots or characters or anything, but I've been dreaming about the pool all the time.

Uh, I know, I know that I've had at least a few. pool dreams lately. And I, I looked, I looked up swimming pool and I have, there were, there were a few like, you know, to dream about this at a pool dream about that. But the one on dream Bible that resonated with me was to see a clean swimming pool in your dream symbolizes comfort and acceptance of negativity or uncertainty in your life.

You have come to terms with certain issues and they don't bother you if you have to think about them. 

[00:01:46] Victor: I'm not sure. That's a good place to be. 

[00:01:48] Zach: Yeah. It's hard to put my finger on like why that resonates, but I guess I'm generally like In a pretty good place. But that doesn't mean there aren't stressors.

[00:01:57] Victor: For sure. 

[00:01:58] Olivia: Dream is swimming pool. Represents enjoying enjoyment of a negative or uncertain situation. That reminds me of the, what was it? I think it was like the spike cake. Oh yeah. Dream. There was something about, there was something about that entry that was like enjoying a negative situation. 

[00:02:17] Zach: Yeah, I wouldn't quite go that far.

But it's the thing that makes me think of like lately is, you know, we're, we're trying to figure out all the pragmatic, um, aspects of, of moving Shelby out here to LA, which is kind of stressful. And like, parts of it are even discouraging, like her job hunts and. Just like the mess that is California, it's so hard to move here and then maintain a life here, but at the same time, you know, thinking about this comes in tandem with thinking about us living together.

So it's like not the stress isn't exactly unpleasant. It feels like totally 

[00:02:51] Olivia: worth it. Yeah. And there's like an element of excitement around the things that are causing you stress, right? 

[00:02:58] Zach: Yeah. They're stressful because it's like a cool thing that we want to happen. Yeah. That makes sense. 

[00:03:04] Victor: It's really interesting.

Like, it seems like all of all the swimming pool entries, the different variations are like how you kind of get a grip on a negative situation. It's like Yeah. Yeah. It's, uh, as if, like, the ocean or, like, the wild bodies of water are, like, inherently scary or inherently dangerous, and then, like, the pool is, like, we've tamed it.

Oh, yeah. It's, like, we've gotten control over this wild element or whatever, and now we get to just 

[00:03:30] Zach: enjoy it. Contained it in one room for the purpose of 

[00:03:32] Victor: recreation. Yeah, and you had a dream a while back of the tidal wave, right? You're out of the ocean in a pool. Yeah, the ocean's a pool now. But it's interesting 

[00:03:41] Zach: because I have been having like off and on.

I've had pool dreams my entire life. Um, like sometimes the pool will look similar. Like, like I've seen the same pool for sure. A few times. Um, but, but it's also, it can be a variety of different types of pools, but I wonder if it has to do with just the ebb and flow of where I'm at in my life. If I had to guess before doing this podcast, I would have said that I have reoccurring pool dreams just because it was like an environment that stood out to me as a kid, like going to the pool as a kid was just so unlike anything.

It's just this weird fluorescent tiled chlorine smelling like it's, it's kind of alien to a kid, you know? But it's. Fun and kind of can be kind of scary if you're not a strong swimmer like me But there must be said there must be some universe out universe at universality some ubiquity to this experience 

[00:04:31] Victor: Yeah, now that I think about it.

I don't really remember like being real excited about the pool I remember it being a thing that we were gonna do and then it being kind of awkward Yeah, it's flashing around a little bit, but I don't remember being like thrilled about the pool 

[00:04:45] Olivia: You're not much of a water baby there though. 

[00:04:47] Victor: Are you? Yeah, I never liked, like, jumping into the water or anything.

I'll wade in gingerly, going, Uh, it's cold. I love 

[00:04:55] Zach: being near it. I like a pool party and, like, going to the beach and being on boats. But I'm not, I'm not a great swimmer and I don't understand what's fun about swimming. I, 

[00:05:05] Olivia: I love swimming and I used, I used to really love the pool, but as an adult, like the pool feels pretty gross to me now, like I know there's a bunch of chemicals in there that make it clean or whatever, but I know everyone is peeing in there.

They're all peeing in there. I 

[00:05:23] Zach: know. I was so grossed out. Why 

[00:05:25] Olivia: can't we all just agree to not pee in the pool? 

[00:05:28] Zach: I thought that was. It's a social contract, I was shocked when I, you know, got into my teens or whatever and found out all my friends have been peeing in the pool forever. The ocean or lake, I get it, but 

[00:05:38] Victor: Betrayal.

Yeah, you can't trust people. I 

[00:05:41] Zach: was just telling Shelby the other day about, uh, Waterworld in Denver. I grew up loving that shit, and my cousin and I went back as adults, and we were all excited. It was like childlike joy and wonder to be going back to Waterworld, and like, We were just too old like all the rides were way too scary and fast and hurt our backs and we're like in the water tastes like pee.

Like this water has to be like 80% pee. 

[00:06:09] Victor: I know pee and this water tastes like pee. I know 

[00:06:12] Olivia: the taste of pee. This 

[00:06:13] Zach: water is it intuitively. Yeah, it's there's something in your reptile brain that goes I'm drinking pee right now, aren't I?

[00:06:23] Victor: Didn't you just have a dream about like a water park live did I I feel like you were telling me about a water park dream That was like kind of unpleasant, 

[00:06:33] Olivia: but maybe I'm misremembering. I might have. I probably did. It's 

[00:06:36] Victor: gone now. 

[00:06:38] Zach: If a swimming pool is like contained enjoyment of like, uh, the problems that the ocean represented in a water park, a water park has got to be like extreme enjoyment.


[00:06:49] Victor: I can't tell, like, on the spectrum of problems, like, if water is problems, like, if a water park is, is better or worse, right? Because, like, on one hand, it's like, oh, you've done even more to, like, control it, but on the other hand, it's, like, crazy. There's, like, a lot more of it, and there's slides and shit.

It's, like, maybe, like, an out of control thing that you're feeling okay 

[00:07:12] Zach: about? I guess it depends on how you feel about water park, right? Waterpork. I keep saying waterpork, I know. Yeah, 

[00:07:18] Olivia: you do. I love the, like, hyper specific Dream Bible entries, like, there's one about swimming in a pool full of feces, and then there's one about owning a brand new swimming pool.

[00:07:32] Zach: If you own a brand new pool full of feces, 

[00:07:35] Olivia: that can't be 

[00:07:36] Victor: good. It's a good question If you've had a dream about owning a new pool of feces Write in to the young and the restless pod at gmail on 

[00:07:47] Olivia: that note though We would love to have some more listeners submitted dreams so if you're If you've been listening for a little while and you feel like we're buddies, we'd love to hear from you.

Please, please, please, please send in your dreams. We always use pseudonyms, um, and so we won't blast your shit out to the world. 

[00:08:13] Zach: Unless you want us to plug some project of yours or something. 

[00:08:16] Olivia: Yeah, we'd do that too. Honestly. Sentiment. 

[00:08:19] Zach: Speaking of projects and water porks, I just, I just remembered an idea I had and I want to get this out there because now I know that I'll never have the capital to make this happen.

So if any investors or like, 

[00:08:31] Victor: uh, didn't we talk about this 

[00:08:32] Zach: already? The, the water park, uh, mini golf combo. Oh no, 

[00:08:37] Olivia: you had a different water park idea on the pod recently. Yeah. 

[00:08:43] Victor: I thought it was going to be one of the restaurant ideas. No. Yeah, it was 

[00:08:45] Olivia: a shark themed water park. Uh, what, is that right? 

[00:08:49] Victor: No, it sounds cool, but 

[00:08:50] Zach: I don't think.

[00:08:52] Victor: Oh. I think that was your dream, but you had no 

[00:08:55] Zach: idea. My idea is water pork. It's a restaurant. Uh, no. It's. Like, I just think it'd be really cool to have like a mini golf course where you go in your bathing suit and like all the, you know, the hazards or whatever that are like water based and you use, you go down like slides to get to the next course.

Uh, That sounds awesome. You, like, knock the ball into, like, a little lazy river ride, then you have to go catch up. 

[00:09:20] Victor: I think that would be fun. If you could guarantee no piss in the water, I would be there all the time. 

[00:09:25] Zach: Apparently, you can't even guarantee no piss in your own shower.

[00:09:31] Victor: Can't even trust the people in your life. 

[00:09:33] Zach: Yeah. People just be peeing in the shower. 

[00:09:36] Olivia: Victor, did I tell you my, the baby dream I had the other night? 

[00:09:40] Victor: Probably, but I don't remember it. I 

[00:09:43] Olivia: had, like, this. I had a super vivid dream of just like waking up in the middle of the night to a baby crying and like picking the baby up and soothing the baby like and but then I like brought the baby up to like breastfeed the baby and I look down and it's my cat and he's like got his mouth like mouth wide open like You And just chomps, chomps me right on the titty with his cat fangs.

[00:10:16] Victor: Um. That means something. That happened. 

[00:10:17] Olivia: And then I never, I, I had a, um, rarely does this happen, but I, I feel like I had like a really vivid, there was a smell, like I really vividly smelled. in this dream. Ugh, 

[00:10:34] Victor: Jesus. 

[00:10:36] Zach: Your milk? 

[00:10:38] Olivia:

[00:10:38] Victor: presume. 

[00:10:41] Zach: I don't think I've ever 

[00:10:42] Victor: smelled in a dream. 

[00:10:43] Olivia: Yeah, I don't know that I have.

It just like stuck with me. It was like, oh, that's a, like a strong smell of milk. It wasn't bad milk. It just smelled like 

[00:10:52] Zach: Yeah, I'm a pretty deep sleeper, but smells will pull me right out of sleep. Oh, interesting. So I don't think, like, I was trying to think if I've ever, like, smelt a real smell and then had it, like, be part of a dream, but every time I can think of something, like once I met a roommate that decided to cook, like, garlic scallops at three in the morning.

And it stunk up the whole house and, but I just woke up, I thought, I thought I was waking up like inside a red lobster dumpster. 

[00:11:17] Olivia: Such a weird late night meal. 

[00:11:20] Zach: He was a huge stoner and, who, who happened to work in like the meat and seafood department at Wajimaya. Uh, so he, he always had like day old meat and seafood.


[00:11:34] Victor: That's the life. 

[00:11:36] Zach: Just getting high and eating old meat. 

[00:11:39] Victor: Slightly old seafood. Yeah. 

[00:11:42] Zach: Yeah. It's a, it's one way to live. I don't know why, but before you said it, that it was your cat, Olivia, I, for some reason, I was sure you were going to say that instead of a baby, it was like a grown man. 

[00:11:53] Victor: That's worse.

[00:11:55] Olivia: That's worse than the 

[00:11:56] Victor: cat. I can't I can't remember what it's called, but you know those like wraps that you use to hold babies? She had that dream like right after she like tested it out with the cat and was carrying the cat around like a baby. There you go. 

[00:12:11] Zach: That's, that's a 

[00:12:12] Victor: wolf. 

[00:12:13] Olivia: The cat loves it. 

[00:12:15] Victor: Yeah, the cat was very happy about it.

That was the 

[00:12:17] Zach: quickest dream we ever solved. I just keep thinking of like other nightmarish things that could be instead of a, like the baby from dinosaurs. Remember that show? I just. 

[00:12:28] Victor: I just, like, rewatched some clips from that. I'm the 

[00:12:32] Zach: baby, gotta love me. 

[00:12:34] Olivia: I have no idea. I have no idea what that is. 

[00:12:37] Zach: Might be like just slightly before your time.

[00:12:39] Victor: Yeah, you should see clips of it. It's kind of a trip. It's like an elaborate, it's. How would you describe it, Zach? 

[00:12:48] Zach: It's like a live action sitcom, but they're all 

[00:12:50] Victor: dinosaurs. Yeah, they're all dressed in dinosaur costumes, and they go around in these, like, semi 

[00:12:55] Zach: realistic, like, latex suits, maybe? Not like, not like Barney.

Weirder than Barney. It gave me nightmares as a kid, actually. It's kind 

[00:13:04] Victor: of impossible to describe to you. I'm just gonna pull up and edit. I'm just sitting here 

[00:13:07] Olivia: looking puzzled. 

[00:13:11] Zach: You guys should just... Binge a few episodes after the recording 

[00:13:15] Victor: this this is what they look like Okay, and they would talk in their lips.

It looks like Jabba the Hutt. Yeah, kinda Yeah, and so Zach was saying you'd be holding this thing

All right, so all you listeners out there Google dinosaurs the show Hit images. Unless you're over 30 

[00:13:38] Zach: then you already know 

[00:13:41] Olivia: Yeah, that must be just, like, just before 

[00:13:44] Victor: my time. Yeah, this is like a barely memory for me, like, I was little when this was on TV. I want, like, a full graph that, like, lays out all the different, like, types of bodies in water by, like, how big of a problem it is and how much you've come to terms with it.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. 

[00:14:03] Zach: Yeah, the ocean is one extreme and then the other is like a glass of water, right? Make 

[00:14:08] Olivia: this you could do this graph 

[00:14:10] Victor: the ocean is huge problem You're not cool with it all and glass of water is like small problem that you're totally fine with mm hmm 

[00:14:20] Olivia: Do we want to jump 

[00:14:21] Victor: into a dream? Yeah, I guess like the z axis would be like whether there's feces in it or not

[00:14:30] Olivia: What does it mean to have feces in your glass of water well the dream 

[00:14:33] Victor: bible So

[00:14:56] Olivia: we received a listener dream from It's right there. It's the red. 

[00:15:03] Victor: Nope. Sorry. Okay. The 

[00:15:05] Olivia: red. It's already red. Right. Right. Right up. Ah. There you go. Okay. From the person whose name you know. 

[00:15:14] Victor: Yeah. I gotcha. David Lynch. I gotcha. 

[00:15:19] Olivia: Okay. Um. 

[00:15:21] Victor: Okay. Should I read the email? We need a 

[00:15:23] Zach: pseudonym. Yeah, 

[00:15:24] Olivia: let's get a David Lynch.

David Lynch. We can use David. 

[00:15:30] Victor: Yeah, David works. David works, um. 

[00:15:34] Zach: It's just from one person? 

[00:15:36] Olivia: Yes, it's um, a three parter. Do you, uh, do you think The context before or after? 

[00:15:43] Zach: Um, usually after, right? 

[00:15:46] Victor: Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Let's do 

[00:15:47] Olivia: context after. Let's just read David's 

[00:15:49] Victor: email. Okay. Okay. I need a, I need a pseudonym for the other person in the dream.

[00:15:54] Olivia: Yes. 

[00:15:55] Victor: Um, 

[00:15:56] Zach: man or lady? 

[00:15:57] Victor: Lady. Lady. Does Kathleen? Sure. Really 

[00:16:03] Zach: put a lot of thought into that. 

[00:16:05] Victor: Had to really mull it over. 

[00:16:08] Zach: Does Kathleen resonate as a fake 

[00:16:10] Olivia: name? No, it doesn't. Actually, I changed my mind. Okay. It 

[00:16:13] Victor: doesn't work. Um. Alice. Ballas. Callus Dallas. Dallas is sick. 

[00:16:22] Zach: Dallas is good. Yeah. You consider naming your kid Dallas?

Hmm hmm.

[00:16:29] Victor: I love that. I'm gonna stick with that. . 

[00:16:33] Olivia: Oh no. Zach, what have 

[00:16:34] Victor: you done? Write that down. Dallas. 

[00:16:37] Olivia: Uh, okay. You know what, Kathleen is fine. . Okay. It's just that I know so many Kathleens . 

[00:16:45] Victor: Yeah. This is not any of them. Yeah, that's perfect then. Um, yeah, because we're never going to use that name, probably, for anything else.

Well, I don't know. Okay. So, um, here's what David wrote. This is my first time writing in a tea jar, so apologies if this is too long. I would like you to talk about this series of dreams I have had over the last eight months. Feel free to use or not use my name, my wife's name, and all the details I've shared with you about her passing.

Dream 1. Symbols. Restaurant slash cafe. On a date. Sidewalk. Shoulders. Uh, skyscraper slash tall building. Looking for someone feeling worried. I was in a restaurant slash cafe looking for a place just waiting for so they've said that we could use their names do we want to just go back to do we want to do that?

Hmm, what do you think? I don't even 

[00:17:40] Zach: know these people. 

[00:17:41] Olivia: Okay. Um, they said feel free to use or not use 

[00:17:44] Victor: them Yeah, feel free to use or not use my name my wife's name and all the details i've shared. Okay So, okay, so if they say feel 

[00:17:54] Olivia: free to use it, why don't we use their name? 

[00:17:57] Victor: Okay, so forget about the pseudonyms.

All right, we are dealing with Sam and Victoria, um, so this is from Sam. Um Dream one I was in a restaurant slash cafe looking for a plate. Oh Restaurant slash cafe looking place just waiting for Victoria my wife to meet me there for a date As I stayed there waiting, I eventually started looking around for Victoria, who I was supposed to meet there a while ago at this point.

I looked around and felt more worried, and more and the more I couldn't find her, um, so I walked out to the sidewalk and tried looking around for her. I then looked onto the top of this tall building, and our eyes met at the same time. It was Victoria. She was at a rooftop cafe, and we both just went to the wrong place.

Once we saw each other, our shoulders both relaxed in relief that we found each other. And we smiled at each other when I walked across the street. I met her and I woke up trying to make this bigger. Part two. We were in the cafe restaurant where I was waiting in dream one on a date just enjoying ourselves.

So that's interesting. Yeah. It's like a continuation. 

[00:19:04] Zach: Did he say if these are different nights? Yeah, 

[00:19:06] Olivia: they, there's three dreams that take place over the course of eight months. Oh. So 

[00:19:12] Victor: they're spaced out. So we were in the cafe restaurant where I was waiting in dream one on a date just enjoying ourselves.

Then all of a sudden this drunk crazy guy comes up to another guy talking on a cell phone on the sidewalk right outside of the restaurant window and the crazed guy pulls a gun on the cell phone guy's head, or puts a gun to the guy's head. Immediately the whole restaurant starts screaming and panicking.

Victoria, being street smart, ducks for cover. I panic and try to run away, but I think twice and choose to hide where Victoria was hiding. I kneeled next to her, a little more visible, and felt her outer leg on my outer leg as we were both ducking for cover. Then the crazy guy comes in and says, I know half you fuckers in here have a knife thinking you can take me out.

I raise my shaky hands and lower my head to show that I was unarmed and pop. He shot me in the head. And I was all of a sudden looking through the hole through my head in paused time, just thinking, huh, so this is what happens when you die. My vision changed to black, but it was a comfortable darkness, and I kept thinking, that was really nice to be with Victoria again.

To have known everyone I've gotten to know or meet was really fortunate of me. Eventually, after I simply existed there, just experiencing love, death, and gratitude all at once, I woke up, still not entirely sure I was alive for a solid three minutes. And the third part. The symbolism, dead trees, urns, non sexual romance, ashes, feeling of bliss turned into solemn dismay.

In this dream, I feel like I was shrunken down into Victoria's urn, but I felt like it was very much an extension of the first two dreams, like this is where I was transported to after I died. And all I really remember from this dream besides that... is sitting in her ashes, picking up handfuls and letting it fall through the fingers like beach sand.

But it reminded me of and felt like running my fingers through her hair. It smelled sweet and had a whole vibe of two Victorian lovers courting each other. It felt so good to have her ashes run through my fingers and then all of a sudden I was transported to an old growth forest. I woke up thinking about forests and a new secondary, secondary growth off of dead tree stumps.

Wow. Do you want to, um, read the context that we got from the text? Three 

[00:21:33] Zach: short but impactful dreams. Yeah. Yeah, 

[00:21:35] Olivia: and it got more and more surreal, you know? Yeah. 

[00:21:40] Victor: It's really, it's beautiful how they all connect, and it's very strange to have like sequential dreams spaced out over months like that. Mm hmm. Um, 

[00:21:53] Olivia: okay, just give me a second.

[00:21:55] Zach: Also, we were just talking about smells and dreams. You mentioned being able to smell. Yeah. 

[00:21:59] Olivia: Yeah. That is interesting. Um, okay. So, um, we asked Sam for some specific additional context to fill everyone in. Um, He says, it's still hard to say, but she passed away October 23rd, 2022, after getting treated for injuries sustained by a drunk driver.

Um, so clearly these dreams are, um, you know, in the immediate aftermath of, of that and are very much about death and grief. No, no, not at all. Um, things on my mind during these dreams. Dream one, how am I going to do this without you? I should have done this different. I should have done this other thing different.

Dream number two, what happens after death? Why couldn't it have been me? And dream three, explaining death to the babies in real life. That's, um, they have two little, little girls. Yeah. Um, toddlers. Yeah, um, explaining death to the babies in real life and I need to put her ashes into the world, um, feelings about the people in these dreams.

The shooter was a frustrated drunk guy. Victoria felt like she was really her and she hadn't passed away yet. Other things, the rooftop restaurant she was at had string lights on posts. The cafe I was in had an all glass wall and door on the west side of the building, which was facing a busy street.

That's interesting that he knows it's west. Um, the cafe had booths and tables. We were at a table, and I hid under the booth just in the southwest corner of the building by the front west wall door. I felt weightless when dead. The ashes were not processed as ashes in my mind, but more as Victoria. I wasn't letting her ashes through my fingers as much as I was running my fingers through her hair.

It smelled like her shampoo even now that I think about it. As I woke, I slowly realized I slowly realized the frontal cortex worry of like, is this sanitary? I don't know. It's hard to explain. Um, the shooter was also an older, maybe 55, boomer guy. Um. I also feel like he was just gonna shoot the cellphone guy, but he got pissed that everyone started freaking out from him drawing the gun, so he came in, all thinking people are trying to take him out.

Sounds weird, but the feeling was, if the people just silently watched that guy murder the cellphone guy, he would've just carried on and not shot me. I didn't have hard feelings for the people freaking out, but it was definitely the reason the shooter came into the cafe. Okay, that's all the details that we have from 

[00:24:46] Zach: Sam.

And the, sorry, the uh, the shooter was drunk, not the cell phone guy. Is that right? Um, yes, 

[00:24:52] Victor: correct. Well, right off 

[00:24:54] Zach: the bat, that makes... Yeah. Really perfect. Yeah. Clear cut sense. Yeah. With the drunk driver being the dangerous. 

[00:25:02] Olivia: Yeah. And one of the thoughts that Sam was having was like, why couldn't it be me?

You know? 

[00:25:08] Zach: So. Yeah, like a direct transference of survivor's guilt there. Right. 

[00:25:13] Olivia: Yeah. I wonder, like. Okay, so maybe let's think about how we want to work this dream because we kind of know generally what this dream is about. We could just like be, you know, work backwards and connect the dots. But another idea I have is maybe we can go through the three things that he listed as like hit what he was thinking during the dreams and see if maybe there's like any answers to those questions hidden in here or like maybe some ideas about what his subconscious is.

Talking to him about regarding what he was maybe trying to process at those 

[00:25:48] Victor: times. That's a really interesting idea. Yeah, 

[00:25:51] Zach: that makes sense. Um, in terms of like, cause if it's obviously about what it's about, you know, grief, it's a series of grief dreams, like pretty. Like there's not a lot to be interpreted there, but as it, but to get like to a deeper level, I think that's a good strategy or an interesting take.

[00:26:10] Olivia: Do we want to start with the first one? Yeah. Okay. Um, and again, in the first dream, he's thinking, how am I going to do this without you? I should have done this different. I should have done this other thing different. So, um, let's see. Let's back to this first stream. Maybe a refresher here. Yeah. 

[00:26:30] Victor: Um, so I was in a restaurant or cafe, uh, looking for or waiting for Victoria to meet me there for a date.

As I stayed there waiting, I eventually started looking around and he starts trying to look for her and becomes increasingly worried about her. And then he goes out to the sidewalk, um, and he looks up and sees that she's at a separate cafe that's on top of a building. And they, their eyes meet, and he realizes the mistake they made, and he goes over to meet her.

And they both are relaxed and relieved to have found each other. It looks like when he walked across the street to meet her, he woke up, so he didn't get to spend any time with her, but he saw her, you know, like across the street and he was relieved and saw she was relieved. And you 

[00:27:19] Zach: think that that question in the context of that dream, does he mean that that question by that question, does he mean like, what could I have done differently in real life?

Or like to avoid the miscommunication in this dream where we ended up in different places or is it both? I 

[00:27:38] Olivia: think he's talking about what was on his mind around the time of the dream. Because that was the question that I 

[00:27:44] Zach: asked. Because it does seem to, like, apply to both, right? Because... Because the answer in either scenario is like, there's nothing, there's nothing you could have done.

You didn't do anything wrong to cause like, you to be at different places at different times. Yeah. Yeah. 

[00:28:01] Olivia: That, that entry has stuff in it. I remember correctly. The lost entry. 

[00:28:06] Victor: So I looked up cafe and lost. Should I start with cafe or lost? How about cafe? Um, so to dream of a cafe reflects your mindset, feeling good while you wait for something to happen.

It may also reflect enjoyment, uh, talking about something you really like that's being taken care of for you. You may be happy to be patient for something, feeling good knowing that what you want is about to happen, positive social interactions. Uh, while being catered to, which I mean, makes a certain mess.

There's like a positive associate. The cafe is like the place of, you know, connecting with Victoria, right? 

[00:28:45] Zach: Yeah, it makes sense in the context of what's happening in the 

[00:28:47] Victor: dream. And then, uh, lost. To dream of being lost represents your attempt to find your way through a situation that's unfamiliar or making you insecure.

You may be experiencing a strange or scary situation that is unsettling because it's new. An overwhelming feeling of confusion or uncertainty in waking life. Not knowing what to do next or where to turn. Feeling that you will never escape a problem or find an answer you need. You're lacking the clarity you want in a situation you are not accustomed to.

Wanting clarification in business or spirituality. Feeling that you can't restore your life or relationships to normal no matter what you try. a lack of direction, feeling unprepared for something you are experiencing, a fear losing something secure in your life, feeling humiliated and not knowing what to do about it, feeling lost without someone important in your life, uh, insecure feelings about a partner that's left to you, feeling that you are losing someone special in your life that made you feel secure and don't know how to live without them.

Yeah. Well, damn. Yeah. Um, And there's all these different places to be lost. Um, there's like lost in a forest, lost in a haunted house, uh, lost in a city maybe is the closest. 

[00:30:02] Zach: So far. Um, 

[00:30:04] Victor: yeah, but that doesn't seem irrelevant. That looks like a social situations thing. Hospital. Yeah. 

[00:30:12] Olivia: I think that last part about like, you know, losing someone and not knowing how to go on without them, that was That was Sam's question.

That was Sam's main thought around this time is how do you go on? 

[00:30:26] Victor: You know, yeah And Sam picked out some symbols that seemed to him. So we've got restaurant cafe a date a sidewalk shoulders where like they were feeling tension Skyscraper tall building Looking for someone feeling worried, so I think that looking for someone we kind of tackled with Lost, um, and we, we tackled the cafe.

Um, we gotta look up Skyscraper. 

[00:30:58] Zach: Does he live in Seattle? 

[00:30:59] Victor: No, probably not like a skyscraper, right? Like a tall building, um. But, um, let's see, 

[00:31:09] Olivia: maybe roof. Yeah, I was, I just pulled up roof. 

[00:31:13] Victor: Um, to dream of a roof represents an emotional, psychological, or situational protection. What you think or have that ensures your view of a situation can't be spoiled.

Standing on the roof symbolizes a lack of barriers to achieve goals. Nothing gets in the way of having what you want. You are noticing things you want happening all the time.

I feel like I could, I could make that work, but I don't want to like be forcing my interpretation onto things. I mean, do 

[00:31:44] Zach: you think it works because she was the one on the roof? 

[00:31:47] Victor: I mean, yeah, like if I was going to try and make that work with my preconceived ideas, it's like, um, sort of like Preservation of a memory, you know, it's like that this person because it says like, um, emotional psychological or situational protection Your views of a situation that can't be spoiled, right?

So if you have a certain memory of If he has a certain memory of Victoria like feeling like that is 

[00:32:18] Olivia: The stream there's there does seem to be like Anxiety in this stream too. Um, and yeah, like the, you know, the being lost, uh, that the lost entry ending with like that exact sentiment of like, not knowing how you're going to go on without someone special that you're losing.

And, um, and, and Sam's Thoughts of like, I should have done this different. I should have done this other thing different. And, and like what you said, Zach, like in this dream, it's like, it was just happenstance, right. That they ended up in different places. Um, do we want to look at the second dream? Yeah.

Yeah. Maybe they'll all kind of, they might all come together more as we. 

[00:33:11] Victor: Um, so in part two, um, they were in the cafe together and they were enjoying being on a date together. Um, and then crazy drunk guy comes up to another guy who was talking on a cell phone. Right outside of the restaurant and the crazy guy puts a gun to the cell phone guy's head and then the restaurant panics Victoria ducks and Sam thinks about running away, but instead chooses to hide with a Victoria And then the crazy guy the crazy guy from the street comes in Hollers at everyone.

I know half you fuckers in here have a knife thinking you can take me out Um, and then Sam kind of makes like a unarmed gesture and then gets shot in the head and then sort of experiences a darkness or like kind of like a an imagining of Being dead and it sounds like it was kind of a comfortable Reflective place that Sam was in you know thinking about like an appreciation of life and the connections that he's made 

[00:34:21] Olivia: It's interesting that Um, hang on.

We're getting a lot of feedback. Are you hearing that? I'm hearing 

[00:34:26] Victor: that, yeah. Oh. It's like, 

[00:34:28] Olivia: it sounds like a fan or something. 

[00:34:31] Zach: I do have a fan going. But you're, it just, it just now became a problem. Yes. It 

[00:34:36] Olivia: sounds different. Nothing else. 

[00:34:38] Zach: It almost sounds like. Yeah. Nothing else has changed and I don't hear anything, but let me go turn it off just in case.


[00:34:43] Victor: sounds like white noise. I just got worried that maybe we've had Zach up too loud this whole time. I hope there's not an echo on this episode. 

[00:34:53] Olivia: Did you turn that down just now? I just now turned it down. Can you turn it back up so we can make sure that Is that 

[00:34:58] Zach: better? I think so. It's gonna get so hot in here.

Oh man. I just, I don't know, wish I could run the AC but that's right next to the microphone. 

[00:35:08] Victor: Okay. Gotta get the ice tray out of the freezer and set it right on your lap. 

[00:35:14] Zach: But if that didn't fix it I wonder if it's something else. No, I think that fixed it. I just wonder why it was changed, because it was, it was, oh well.

[00:35:23] Victor: Yeah, it kind of sounded like, um, like cell signal try

turning the fan back on and seeing how we're doing? Yeah. Because it might be just whatever it was past, maybe someone was getting a text or something and... 

[00:35:37] Zach: Yeah, I literally just checked when he said that. If I get hot, I'll try. Yeah. It's all the way over there. Well, yeah. I don't know. I don't know how much it's affecting anything.

To be honest. 

[00:35:47] Olivia: Okay. Do we want, do you want like any marker or anything for editing? Uh, no. I 

[00:35:52] Zach: always listen to the whole thing. 

[00:35:54] Olivia: Okay. Um, I was going to say, it's interesting that it's interesting that in the first stream, Sam was walking over to the other building, but then in the stream, they're back in the cafe that he started in.


[00:36:07] Victor: that? Yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Okay. So they come back to this first 

[00:36:11] Olivia: cafe. Yeah. And to, um, the, the questions that he posed or, um, around, around the time of this dream, he was wrestling with what happens after death and why couldn't it have been him. 

[00:36:26] Zach: And in the dream it was him. Right. 

[00:36:28] Victor: Yeah. Which is, and a glimpse of what might happen after death.

Right. So, yeah. 

[00:36:33] Zach: Which is. That's it. Interesting if you interpret, you know, the cafe he was in in the first dream as a life and the rooftop is like a, um, you know, maybe passing on, yeah, this preservation of memory. If they're now both in the same one, it might be, even though it's a forward progression, like a linear progression in the dream story, it feels like it almost might be like a rewind 

[00:37:02] Olivia: reality.

But I'm wondering if it might, there might be an answer to that question, um, in, of why couldn't it be me in this? Like, as if this is a simulation of this is what it might have been if it was you. And maybe there's... Maybe there's something in there that we can, you know, Yeah. I don't know. Yeah. 

[00:37:26] Zach: What I was thinking about while you were kind of going over it again, uh, like the, the fact that the one that's armed and dangerous is the drunk person, like that makes pretty perfect clear cut sense.

But I was wondering, given that information, like who is the cell phone guy? Like what is, what kind of transgression does being on your cell phone represent? Yeah. Like, why would that make you a target? And then yeah, the, the rest of the cafe freaking out seemed to be like a further catalyst to this guy's actions.

So what does that 

[00:38:00] Victor: mean? Yeah. And um, you know, Sam said that, uh, something that we're wrestling with was like, what sounds like, you know, guilt, like survivor's guilt of like, is there anything I could have done or why? Why not me, you know, um, so I think it's interesting that in the dream, like in if it was like just a more obvious, like reflection of that in the dream, it would maybe be the like, Sam did something to provoke the guy to attack.

But in this case, it was like a whole cafe, like all these other people were responsible. For what 

[00:38:39] Zach: happened, right? Yeah, but he wasn't mad at them. Yeah, blame them. 

[00:38:43] Victor: Yeah, which, um, as you were saying about like, you know, the answer, what could you do different is there was nothing you could have done, right?

Like that it being out of his hands. And then also feeling like a sense of, um, acceptance or forgiveness for the people that caused. Um, the attack, yeah, um, might be, you know, part of himself reaching towards like, um, you know, acceptance of the senselessness or 

[00:39:12] Zach: randomness of, yeah, so you think tragedy like those?

Because, I mean, I don't know what this like event was like for him in any sense, but I have to imagine it. I mean, there was. Unless, unless the guy like hit and ran there, there had to have been some like court proceedings and like a lot of people, 

[00:39:29] Victor: and I don't know all the details, but 

[00:39:31] Zach: I just, I imagine it was a long drawn out thing with a lot of people involved.

And so I guess that scenery could be a reflection of like, of him not. Not putting the onus on anyone else, you know, because if the culprit was caught in and suffered consequences, you know, that guy has a whole family that, uh, isn't isn't to blame and is also suffering in their own way like that. It could have something to do with that.

I mean, there's a lot of, uh. Moving parts to, to something as like big and dramatic and consequential as, as an event like that. You know, 

[00:40:09] Olivia: I, I just have, uh, such a hard time even beginning to imagine. Yeah. 

[00:40:16] Zach: Um. Now there's something in my brain that like, that won't, won't let me imagine 

[00:40:22] Olivia: it. Yeah. No, I fully feel that.

Um, yeah, I just, I can't, I really just can't even begin to imagine. 

[00:40:31] Victor: This is maybe like a, like a toxic male thing, but like, um, since Olivia became pregnant, I've started to like, occasionally get these, like, I'm like, uh, for, for the rare listener that doesn't know me, I'm not like. I'm not like a big tough guy.

I'm not like a He's not as macho as he sounds, folks. I'm not as I know that I sound pretty masculine, but uh,

but uh, I am, uh, I, yeah, I'm, I'm, I'm really not like a physical confrontation kind of person. I've never have been, but like, I've been having like, these like, kind of violent protective fan fantasies, I guess, or like, I will like I will get these, this flash of a moment of something happening to Olivia and then being like, like, like feeling like, um, I would have no choice but to murder somebody.

Uh, like that, like Um, yeah, it just like, like, it's like I'll have like a, I'll have like a fear thing will pop up. Like I'll get this sudden, like we'll be like walking and I'll, I'll have like a fear of like something happening, like someone doing something or something, something happening to hurt Olivia.

And then, or like, kill Olivia. Olivia's not alive anymore in this flash of a fantasy that I'm having. And then my immediate response is to then try and kill the person that caused that. And like, that's like, it's like coming from a fear place, you know? It's like an anxiety thing. It's like my brain is like, my very, like, my primitive, primitive, primal brain is like in...

Like protector dad mode now, uh, and that's kind of how it started to manifest for me. I know it's like silly and kind of toxic and stupid, but like, it's just, it's become more of a thing for me. And it was not as much of a thing before she was pregnant. Like it's a thing that's kicked in now that I'm going to be a 

[00:42:30] Zach: dad, I would argue is not inherently toxic.

Yeah. Um, cause I've always, I feel like those are two observable things is mom strength and dad reflex. Like when people become parents, moms become unbelievably, like, you know, there are stories of lifting like, like cars to get, uh, their child out from underneath. And then dads have this like superhuman ability, like a spider sense to like grab the kid at the last second before they fucking run into a wood chipper.

Um, I knew a guy who, sorry, sort of off topic, but a guy who was His wife was expecting and I was hanging out with him down by the Boulder Creek in, in Colorado. And on the other side of the river, a little kid fell in a group. There's a group of unsupervised kids. No, no, no one older around them. A kid fell into the river.

And without even thinking about it, my friend just jumped in and, and pulled the kid out of the river. And I was like, damn, dude, you got those dad reflexes already. Yeah. 

[00:43:31] Victor: Yeah. Yeah. But like, I, I don't know. I, I say that to say, like, I can, I'm just like, I'm not able to imagine what that's like. That's what that is for me when that's coming up for me.

It's like I'm getting this flash of fear of like this life ending event, right? Where like, it's hard to imagine doing anything other than just like throwing my life away, you know? Yeah. Um, and so I, I can't even begin to, I don't know. And like, I feel like as I get older and then as I, like, have more experiences, my empathy has deepened, you know?

Like, I feel like just knowing that I'm going to be a dad has deepened my empathy, um, and even then, you know, it's like, there's just some stuff that's unimaginable. Like, your brain won't go there. 

[00:44:23] Zach: Yeah, and so, uh, but um, I, I have, I've heard that when something like this happens, you know, from widows and widowers, I've, I've heard that in the immediate aftermath, there's, there's part of you that like, it is surreal that there's part of you that wonders, like maybe you were the one that died and this is hell or some sort of simulation or some sort of like wrong, wrong timeline that you ended up, like, there's no way that All of this other stuff that happened is real.

So something must have happened to you. And now you're the one living in this fucked up timeline. I've, I've heard it described that way. Um, and that was my immediate thought about this dream. But then that, that question that you said he was, um, wrestling with at the time, like, why couldn't it have been me?

Yeah. And then, and putting that together with like him, Going to her to hide with her like literally like mimicking putting himself in her literal position Yeah And then being shot because of it did it does seem like that like this dream has to do with him Living out that question or attempting to answer it subconsciously.

[00:45:29] Olivia: Yeah. Yeah, I think it's a simulation of that Of that possibility, you know or at least it seems Like it might be, you know, and 

[00:45:40] Victor: it's really interesting to go into like kind of a, um, like a, a simulation of death, right. Or like an, an idea of what death might be, um, like kind of a, like a comforting darkness, right.

That's just kind of an out there dream experience. I don't know if you guys have ever had something like that, but I've certainly not. It makes sense in the context, but it's just, it's really interesting for a dream to take you there. People, people would always say like, oh, if you die in a dream, you'll wake up or stuff like that.

You know, like I think it's rare to experience death from within a dream. 

[00:46:18] Olivia: Yeah, I've only experienced it as, um, like a thing that kicks me back to like a previous checkpoint in the dream. Like I will just respawn and like get caught in a death loop. But I've never had, like, it continue on after. 

[00:46:34] Zach: Yeah, I've, I've died in dreams and not woken up, uh, but I've never gone to, like, an afterlife sort of thing.

Like, I remember a few where I, actually, I remember one in particular where I got shot, but then I, I just laid there on the ground, unable to move in the dream. 

[00:46:50] Victor: Right, because, I mean, just to kind of reel back to, like, dream philosophy or whatever. Like, I, I tend to think generally your brain is trying to solve like life problems, right?

And the whole, our whole consciousness and this whole like subconscious thing, it's like, it's all about trying to navigate you a living thing through like stuff. It's not as much about, um, you know, the existential questions or if those existential questions come up, it's like, well, how does that impact what you're doing in your life?

Right. Um, so I mean, Like it does feel like we're stating the obvious a lot because like it's so clear what this dream is about and what's going on and going on here, but like to be so penetrated by the concept of death and the preoccupation of death that your dreams will take you there because you, um, you, it becomes like primally important, like on a subconscious level, important to like understand that place or to like put yourself there in a way that it, it, it isn't for most people.

It isn't most of the time, you know? Yeah. Um, more like at our core, like the thing that keeps you going is thinking about life, you know? Um, I'm just rambling now. 

[00:48:10] Olivia: Well, I, I mean. And that kind of, I feel like that kind of leads back into what Sam is wrestling with around the time of the third dream, which is like explaining all of this to his young children, you know?

Um, like that for me, when I Yeah, talk about not being 

[00:48:28] Zach: able to imagine something. 

[00:48:30] Olivia: No, yeah, absolutely, I, it's, I can't even begin to go there, but I, I do feel like when I run those simulations of like, if something happened to you, um, like, having, I don't know, the, like, I feel like having children, It's like, that's a thing that you have to go on.

You have to go on for them. You know, they are a piece of that person and of you. Yeah. And that is, that is the thing to live for in that very, very unimaginably difficult time. Yeah. 

[00:49:11] Victor: Yeah. 

[00:49:12] Zach: So yeah, side note, a lot of my friends, if not most of my friends. I have consciously chosen not to have kids, um, which is totally cool.

Like I, I think, you know, that's an individual choice and everybody should do what's right for them. Um, I totally respect that, but the, uh, the framing of it as like, that's the brave thing to do or like the right thing to do or attaching any sort of like righteousness to it. Like whether it has to do with like climate change or whatever, I dunno, I just see having kids as being like.

exceptionally brave. Um, just in general, regardless of the state of the world or like anything like that, there's just, I don't know, it sounds scary to me and, uh, I don't know if I ever will, but, but, uh, that's beside the point. Yeah, 

[00:50:02] Victor: that's, that's interesting. I, I think, um, I think a lot of the time, um, I mean, sometimes people just kind of fall into it.

But like, um, if someone like decides to have kids or decides not to have kids at a particular point in their life, I think that's coming from a, like a subconscious place or like, like that's getting decided on like a more internal level and then people attach justifications to it. Um, this is my Because that our brains work that way a lot of the time it's like we'll make a decision and then we'll work backwards like construct reasoning for what decision we made and with something that's like that primal and that like life altering and everything I think it's like I think that um people that Like, I think that I'm probably not honest with myself 100% about why I want kids, right?

Or like, if like, when I think about the question of like, well, what's the world going to look like, you know, in 30 years when I have an adult child or whatever, I don't have a good answer for that. I know that I want to start a family. I don't, I don't know. I hope that, I hope that the world continues to be livable and I would like to try and help it continue to be livable if it, if in whatever ways that I can.

But like, it, it doesn't feel like I'm making a rational choice. It's an emotional choice. And then I'm thinking about logic after. 

[00:51:25] Olivia: Yeah. Yeah. I, I feel like I got myself into like a logic loop about it where it was like, there were. Like, I think this whole time, like, I wanted to have kids and, like, but the logic of it is so, like, frightening that, like, I, and being, like, a, a relatively analytical person, like, I got real caught up.

Like, trying to weigh the reasons why we should or shouldn't, um, and that was just like battling with the, like, impulse in me to do it when it's like, that was gonna happen the whole time, I think. Um, cause I don't know that you can, like, logic your way out of, like, a primal impulse like that. 

[00:52:09] Victor: Yeah, and I, I mean, maybe, maybe this is true of, of some people, but I think for a lot of people that are, that would say, like, I'm not having kids because it's bad for the planet.

If you were to wave a magic wand and change the equation where actually it would be totally fine and not damaging to the planet at all, I don't know that those people would suddenly um, be like 100% on board for having kids. They probably feel a certain way and then they're thinking about it from that perspective.


[00:52:39] Zach: that's totally fine too. Like you're allowed to just be selfish like if you just want to sleep till 11 every morning. 

[00:52:46] Victor: I would not call it, I wouldn't even call it selfish. No, that's what I'm 

[00:52:48] Zach: saying. You know. Oh, oh, oh, right, right. Yeah, but yeah, I'm saying if even if you were to call it selfish, that's okay too.

Oh yeah. It's a, it's okay to, uh, to value your own life that, that much that you don't want to like make that big of a sacrifice for a new one. Yeah. Like that, that's, that's valid. But it, regardless of what anyone does, it is, it's weird. It's a weird puzzle being like a monkey who's capable of philosophy, right?

[00:53:15] Olivia: Yeah, it's weird. 

[00:53:19] Zach: I think, yeah, most of us, most of us are going on intuition and then trying to explain it later, regardless of what we do. One of my 

[00:53:25] Olivia: favorite Victor quotes is your subconscious is just a monkey. Or wait, what is it? Your subconscious is just a thing trying to drive a monkey through the jungle 50, 000 years ago and it's running into a lot of problems.

We used that 

[00:53:39] Zach: as an intro for one of our episodes already. 

[00:53:41] Olivia: Oh yeah, we did. That was just a thing that Victor said one time. Callback. 

[00:53:47] Zach: So should we move into this third dream? 

[00:53:49] Olivia: Yeah, yeah, let's 

[00:53:50] Victor: do that. I mean, um, okay, I thought that occurred to me Um, I feel like I probably sound like an asshole rambling about all this stuff it's it's all very like heady stuff, but um, But something that I thought was interesting is um, like I don't I don't have the stages of grief like perfectly memorized but it does seem like This first dream is um, I mean, I just had this in my brain.

[00:54:17] Zach: Pull it up. Um, what is there seven? 

[00:54:19] Olivia: Yeah, five or seven. Yeah, I got it. 

[00:54:23] Zach: Anger. I accidentally googled. 

[00:54:25] Olivia: Depression. Acceptance. Bargaining. Denial. Guilt. Shock. Oh, wait, wait, hang on. Hang on a second. This is listing 20 things. Oh, wow. 

[00:54:35] Zach: I got, I got 22. 20 as well, not 22. 

[00:54:38] Victor: But um, so like this first dream of like being distressed that you're, that, um, Victoria is not there.

It's like, kind of feels like grief, you know, just like sadness. Uh, and then the second one feels bargaining y about like, well, what if it was me? Um, and then this last stream does feel like it's moving towards acceptance. Yeah. 

[00:55:02] Olivia: Okay. Let me, let me redo this cause I definitely listed them totally wrong.

It's shock and denial, pain and guilt, anger and bargaining. Depression, the upward turn, reconstructing and working through, and then acceptance and 

[00:55:17] Zach: hope. Yeah. Um. It looks like there's a lot of different, but no matter how many steps, there are the beginning, middle, and end are all the same. Yeah. Um. It always starts with.

Yeah, that is. It always starts with like staticky, anger, denial sort of emotions, and then in the middle is bargaining, and then ends with acceptance. 

[00:55:38] Olivia: That is super interesting, though, um, cause I, it does feel like, like shock and denia Like, there's, there's anxiety in that first dream, right? 

[00:55:47] Victor: Yeah, and then there is reconnecting with Victoria, which might be 

[00:55:51] Olivia: denial.

Like, denial, yeah. Um, and... And it's interesting that we kind of end or we, we land around bargaining, which is kind of the, or it's around the middle point of this cycle, right? Um, reconstructing and working through kind of feels like some around where we end here. Yeah. 

[00:56:13] Zach: Um, right. Cause I agree with Victor that second dream feels the very concept of, of why can't it be me?

Can I, can I go understood that that is very, I think to the best of my understanding, like a textbook definition of bargaining. 

[00:56:28] Olivia: Right. Well, and there's a lot of, um, anger in that dream and all, all dream characters are us, right? Right. Um, there's a very angry, violent character in there that is. Um, you know, playing a role, 

[00:56:44] Zach: right?

And it's not being portrayed as a, uh, an accident, which presumably drunk driving. I mean, it's a, what do they call it? Voluntary manslaughter. Like it's a hundred percent your fault because he chose to get drunk, but it's not. Putting a gun to somebody's head. It's not it's being portrayed as even more aggressive and deliberate.

Yeah, it was 

[00:57:08] Victor: Yeah, it being like a like a violent Person or you know, like a like a crazy person Does kind of connect to the desire for there to be like a reason or to structure a villain, you know, a villain, like some kind of like reason. Um, and so like that it being it happening because this person is angry and evil is a reason and oh, that person.

did this because the people in the cafe had a big reaction or whatever. That's another reason, right? It's like, um, trying to make sense of a senseless thing. Should I read the third dream? Yeah. Um, So in this dream I feel like I was shrunken down into Victoria's Urn, but it felt like it was very much an extension of the first two dreams, like this is where I transported to after I died.

So like, a reconnection, right? Um, yeah. And um, All I really remember from this dream besides that is sitting in her ashes, picking up handfuls, and letting it fall through the fingers like peach sand. Um, but it reminded me of and felt like running my fingers through her hair. It smelled sweet and had a whole vibe of two Victorian lovers courting each other.

Um, it felt so good to have her ashes running through my fingers, and then all of a sudden I was transported to an old growth forest. And I woke up thinking about forests and new secondary growth off of dead tree stumps. 

[00:58:40] Olivia: Yeah. Uh, you know, I would bet that like, you know, we're, we're getting three dreams here and we all know that we don't always remember our dreams, but like, I would bet that we got these, these are kind of snapshots of different places.

Sam was at in the grief process. Um, and you know, I'm sure that a lot of that is ongoing, but like this last one really reads like, um, you know, reconstructing working through acceptance and hope to, you know, um, that like secondary growth off of dead trees is. Um, vivid image and remarkably poetic. Yeah.

Yeah. That's a really beautiful dream. Yeah. Um, 

[00:59:26] Zach: what if it were just the being shrunk down into the urn part, you might, you might like at face value read that as like part of. Not denial, but like, like a, uh, a, a, a need to, to have one more moment with this person or to like being willing to be shrunken down just to like, to be back with this, this, this person, but putting it in tandem with the, the forest part and the way he paints the image of being in there, it doesn't come across as like throwing yourself on top of the casket.

Like it doesn't come across as, um, hysterical or anything, it, it, it does come across as peaceful. 

[01:00:05] Olivia: What Sam says he was, um, dealing with around that time was explaining death to the babies in real life and, um, And he says, I need to put her ashes into the world. So like that image of him sitting there with the ashes, like, uh, feeling the need to let them go.

Um, yeah, that does feel like, like a one last moment kind of 

[01:00:32] Victor: thing. And I mean, like, you can write better symbolism than the old growth forest and new growing from old. And I'm, I'm not surprised that there's so much like, um, really like poignant, like poetic, like feeling written, uh, like stuff coming through in these dreams because Sam is a very talented songwriter.

Um, and so it was, it's like his, his artistic connections are coming through in these dreams. Yeah. 

[01:01:05] Zach: Yeah. I know we just talked about how having to explain something like this to a couple of children would be unfathomable and incomparably difficult, but maybe, I mean, maybe it might help in some way to, I mean, not help with the process of moving on, I guess, to like externalize it.

And make it a, like, known quantity, you know what I'm saying? Like a, a thing that we have to process together as opposed to wrestling with yourself. I mean. Yeah. Obviously it's traumatic for the kids. So maybe it's stupid what I'm saying, but. Well, 

[01:01:40] Olivia: I, I, no, I don't think so. I think like. What really gets me about that, like, what, is just how, how young these babies are.

They're, they're actual babies, um, and I just can't imagine, like, how, cause you have to, you know, you have to, there's no not explaining, right? Um, but I think they were, you know, under two years old. Uh, or around that age. And I just, I really just can't imagine that. Um, but you're probably right. There's probably something like cathartic in the same way of like letting go of the ashes.

Like there's probably something cathartic about like finding the right words and the way to explain it and, and, um, being able to move forward together as a family. Right. 

[01:02:33] Zach: Yeah, I guess maybe what I was trying to say had less to do with like the actual explaining it part and and more with the idea of like Still having something to live for he still has these two like as hard as that moment would like impossibly hard As that moment is in in my limited Ability to empathize with this this person.

It feels like it would be almost darker to do it completely alone Like there are these two Yeah. Um, like, like, they, they, they came from her, there's still literal pieces of her left in these, in these babies. Um, and, and I'm sure that knowing he has to, um, forge ahead for their sake is like, feels insurmountable, but, um, but it's because they're worth it, you know, they're, they're worth persevering for.

Yeah, absolutely. It's really difficult to talk about with like no world experience even close to this level. 

[01:03:31] Olivia: Yeah, it really is. And I think what you're describing of like, um, um, the difficulty of like, you know, Having to, like, make that leap to, like, explain this thing that seems, um, impossible. That, you know, um, like, that seems so unbelievably difficult.

Uh, like, I think that that, uh, kind of ties right into, like, the letting go of the ashes. That's probably hard, a hard thing to do and, like, a thing that... It maybe feels like, well, I can just hang on to this a little bit longer. It's probably a scary step to take, um, and also probably a step that feels good once you, once you do it, 

[01:04:13] Victor: right?

You know, I know that we're never qualified to do this, but I feel especially unqualified. Try and talk about this, you know, yeah, you know 

[01:04:25] Zach: you know this podcast is based on us being amateur dream analysts, but Now we're stepping into the shoes of amateur grief counselors. Yeah, 

[01:04:35] Victor: it's 

[01:04:36] Olivia: just that like yeah This might be the first time we've received a dream About like an acute capital T drama like situation, you know, um, and, uh, yeah, it's just, it's something that none of us have experienced.

Um, and. Yeah, I don't know. It's just, uh, it's different talking about it. Like we can connect the dots, but we can't tap into what that must be like, you know, I really don't feel like I can tap into that. Um, 

[01:05:12] Zach: yeah, we've had some dark dreams and talked about, um, heavy subjects and even like had brushes with.

Um, or like allusions to some capital T trauma. Like, you know, I brought up like a, a dream a while back that had to do with some capital T trauma that like from Shelby, but that's like a couple layers removed. It's a dream about a thing that I heard that happened that someone I know, um, yeah, this is very different.

[01:05:39] Olivia: But I do think that, um, Victor, that you hit on something there with these, like the time between these. Kind of pin pointing to different parts of that cycle, uh, stages of grief. I think that that that's really interesting and that makes perfect sense that that would show up in your dreams and in that way.

[01:06:00] Victor: You know, something we say a lot is that your dreams are about what's really bothering you, you know, and for all of us, it's like just kind of patterns we found ourselves in or can't see a way out of or a life circum like. Kind of, relatively minor life circumstance stuff that's like, you know, keeping us from like getting to the next level of what feels like, you know, self actualization or whatever.

Um, and we don't. we haven't dealt with a lot of stuff that is like, as you said, Olivia, like capital D drama, like, um, following you and, and, um, really reshaping your life. Um, and, um, it's really interesting to see. That come through in dreams for somebody, you know, that, um, the thing, the thing that is penetrated is not just like the day to day, um, like part of yourself, telling yourself to grow or change.

It's, it's, um, your whole life being reshaped. Um, And, um, yeah, I don't know, I'm gonna probably sound like an asshole here again, but, um, I just wanna say, you know, same as someone that I've only kinda recently gotten to know, um, but he's just, uh, the, like, sweetest, kindest guy I've ever met, and, um, I really Um, I get, we talk about how we can't wrap our, our brains around this week.

We can't really process this level of, um, this loss. Um, and I also cannot process or wrap my brain around, um, just like the resilience and, uh, the positivity and, and like the, the, the drive to, um, continue to put good in the world that I see from Sam. And, um, I am, I'm inspired by, um, what I've, what I've seen of the kind of guy that Sam is.

I don't Yeah. Yeah. You don't meet a lot of people like that. Yeah. 

[01:08:03] Zach: You sounded like a real asshole there, Victor. Yeah. 

[01:08:06] Victor: Real 

[01:08:06] Olivia: asshole. Victor.

[01:08:19] Victor: Um, yeah. So, um, Sam Chu, uh, c h u e, uh, is on Spotify. Uh, look him up. He's got, um, a couple of albums, uh, something about the weather and portrait 

[01:08:35] Zach: following him right now. 

[01:08:37] Olivia: And I just want to say, I really appreciate, um, Sam being so open and sharing this with us. Um, I, yeah, it's really special to, um, receive that kind of vulnerability from people.

And I'm just. I'm grateful. 

[01:08:56] Zach: You said he's not in Washington? He's in Washington. Oh, just not in Seattle. Yeah, I just noticed he has a song called Bellingham song. Yeah, that's 

[01:09:04] Victor: where he's at. That's where he is. 

[01:09:06] Zach: Uh, and the reason I asked is because, uh, in one of his dreams, he said that, uh, he mentioned knowing which direction West was.

And, uh, 

[01:09:16] Victor: is that just a Seattle thing by the water or something that a coastal thing? 

[01:09:20] Zach: No. Well, it made me think of my time in Seattle because And maybe this is unique to my pattern of movement, but, um, in Denver, it's where I lived for like, I don't know, 13, maybe 15 years. Everybody always knows where West is because the Rocky mountains, like you can always see the Rockies and that's always West of you no matter where you are.

So in Denver, it's very common to use cardinal directions because it's accessible to everybody. Right. Right. I think just. Having that, um, programming of thinking, when I lived in Seattle, I kind of always knew where West was, even though I couldn't see the Puget Sound, I kind of always was aware of where the Puget Sound was.

[01:10:05] Olivia: No, yeah, that's, that's a, that's a normal thing here too, like. Yeah. And, and not just West, like, well, I mean, I guess if you know where one, you know where all of them are, but there's like. North you can see, on a clear day, to the north you see Mount Baker, to the south you see Mount Rainier, to the west you see the Olympics, and to the east you see the Cascades.

So you're surrounded by mountains. Oh, 

[01:10:27] Zach: well that's even, that's even better than, than the Rockies. I just always kind of like, because of, you know, I lived in Columbia City, and so I knew which direction. The Puget Sound was from there because I knew the light rail went north and then Puget Sound is west and so wherever I went I kind of had some bearings on where I headed up in relation to the sound.

[01:10:49] Olivia: I'll tell you what though, it's not universal. Yeah. There are the victors of the world who can live here their whole life and be like, what's 

[01:10:56] Victor: that mountain? She has to constantly remind me what mountain we're looking at and I can't retain it to save my life. Rainier's the big one. Yeah, that doesn't help.


[01:11:05] Olivia: doesn't retain names of things or people, but he's very smart at other things. 

[01:11:10] Victor: Yeah, I can do concepts all day, but I can't do names or labels or dates. 

[01:11:16] Zach: No, I dated a girl for three years in my early twenties who was in med school, and she's finished now. She's a full doctor. Um. Yeah. Yeah. But the whole time I was with her, she, uh, every time left or right came up, she had to put one hand in the air.

[01:11:32] Victor: That's 

[01:11:32] Olivia: me. One of the most. I want to get it tattooed on my hands because I'm so 

[01:11:39] Victor: bad. Yeah. 

[01:11:41] Zach: Probably the first concept I learned was left from right and she, you know, was getting straight A's in biochemistry, but could not remember left and right. 

[01:11:50] Olivia: That's like, I know it. It's just like. I heard somebody say that, like, for most people, um, left and right is as intuitive as up and down.

Yeah. And it's not that way for me. It is not that way for me. Are you ambidextrous? It's a separate thing. No. 

[01:12:07] Zach: Oh. So you can't remember the one 

[01:12:10] Olivia: I'm just a little stupid. 

[01:12:13] Zach: You might be a genius. I don't know. This girl's a liver doctor. 

[01:12:18] Olivia: You can be a liver doctor? Yeah. Just for the 

[01:12:21] Zach: livers? Yeah. Well, I don't know what the specialty is called, but that was, um, yeah, uh, Denver, um, Anschwitz Hospital.

Actually, I think, I think, at least at the time, were, they were the number one, uh, liver transplant hospital in the country and that's what she wanted to do, was, um, work in that field. It's probably a whole system, like kidneys, liver. Whatever that system is called. I'm not a genius in this way. I only know my left from right.

That's my specialty. I 

[01:12:52] Olivia: saw, I saw a guy who got a face transplant. Like he, he received a face from a I saw that picture. Yeah. I've like, I've seen, I've like, I was watching his videos on Tik TOK and like, um, that's just good. It was just crazy that they can do that, but it's 

[01:13:10] Zach: super, I didn't know they couldn't do that.

[01:13:13] Olivia: I mean, it's crazy to me, like Like he probably didn't have like you don't have much of a choice right and like what you're receiving But so he was like a 23 year old man who received like a 55 year old man's face I just 

[01:13:29] Victor: yeah, that's 

[01:13:29] Zach: it was Nicolas Cage 

[01:13:33] Olivia: and that that man Today is Nicolas Cage. He's a 24 year old man.

A face off joke. Oh, I haven't seen face off. I've seen a lot of Nick Cage 

[01:13:45] Victor: movies. It's about face transplants. Yeah, then we're gonna have fun tonight. Really? 

[01:13:52] Zach: We should watch face off. I fucking 

[01:13:53] Olivia: love weird Nick Cage movies. I haven't seen that one. You'll love 

[01:13:57] Victor: face off. That's one of the best ones. We're watching it.

Yeah, for real. We're a hundred percent watching face off. Okay, let's do it. Don't tell her anything else about it. 

[01:14:06] Zach: John Travolta's in it That's not that's the only other 

[01:14:08] Victor: thing. There you go. Yeah, that's the other guy's space 

[01:14:13] Olivia: Yeah 

[01:14:17] Victor: Thank you for listening to the Jung and the restless You can 

[01:14:19] Zach: follow us on social media at the Jung and the Restless Pod and submit your dreams for interpretation to the Jung and the Restless Pod at Gmail.

[01:14:27] Olivia: And as we always say, a little dream of me. Me, I hate it, . 

[01:14:35] Victor: All right, we got it. That that's 

[01:14:38] Olivia: fine. 

[01:14:39] Victor: It's good.

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