EPISODE

33. I Wouldn’t Do This to my Friends

Zach’s been an early morning Gym Rat while Olivia has been running a marathon every day (on the inside where…...

Zach’s been an early morning Gym Rat while Olivia has been running a marathon every day (on the inside where no one can see). Olivia has some further insights about her Centaur dream from last week's episode, and realized that the key to interpreting this dream was buried with her Harry Potter fan roots. The Dream Team has a long discussion about spirituality and the concept of God, as well as ego death, and how often people should do mushrooms. Olivia shares two more dreams that expand on her concerns about learning to set boundaries as she and Victor become parents.

0:00 intro

4:30 centaur update

14:12 Spirituality

37:33 Home Invasion dreams

About Dream Bible:

Dream Bible is a free online A to Z dream dictionary dedicated to helping people understand the meaning of their dreams. Unlike other dream interpretation websites or books we extensively research dream symbols by interviewing people about the events occurring in their lives at the time of their dreams.  Inspired by the work of Gillian Holloway Ph.D, we are using a database of over 350,000 dream reports to create the world's most practical dream dictionary based on the waking life experiences of regular people.

http://www.dreambible.com/

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Episode Transcript

33. I Wouldn't Do This to my Friends

Welcome to the Jung and the Restless. I'm Victor. I'm Zach. 

[00:00:03] Olivia: And I'm Olivia, and this is the podcast where sometimes you're just a little kitty catt 

[00:00:28] Zach: Yeah, when I said I have to be up early tomorrow, I don't actually have to be up early tomorrow, but I've been getting up at 6:00 AM every morning, uh, to, to hit the gym before work. Which is maybe the most ambitious thing I've ever done. 

But it's, it's kind of nice. Uh, I'm used to getting up, like if, if I have a 15 minute commute to work, I'm used to getting up about 16 minutes before work and just fucking sprinting out the door, spitting toothpaste into the bushes on the way to the car.

[00:01:01] Victor: That's how I operate.

[00:01:02] Zach: Yeah. But. Yeah, this whole week I've been giving myself an entire, like half an hour to get to the gym, which is five minutes away, an hour to work out and then half an hour to get to, to, to hit the showers, another half hour to get to work. It's like other than the hour in the middle where I'm, uh, dripping sweat, the rest of it's very leisurely. 

[00:01:24] Victor: 

goddamn gym rat

just 

[00:01:28] Zach: Yeah. Um, I, I feel like I got hit by a F-150 today. I'm, I'm, I'm not a stranger to getting, I've had jobs for like years on end where I had to get up hella early to be somewhere. And, and I've always thought that like five hours of sleep a night would be is fine. Like I've always survived on that if I had to. Uh, but when you factor in, like, working out in the morning, it's crazy how much more sleep your body needs.

[00:01:52] Olivia: Mm mm-hmm. Yeah. You're spending more energy.

[00:01:56] Zach: Yeah.

[00:01:57] Olivia: Did you know that pregnant people's bodies operate at a metabolic rate that is the equivalent of running a marathon every single day?

[00:02:07] Zach: I did not know that fact. 

I mean, I assumed it, uh, was a lot, but I didn't know it was a marathon. That's crazy.

[00:02:16] Victor: It's

[00:02:16] Olivia: weird to be so tired and to like

not 

[00:02:20] Zach: And hungry. 

[00:02:20] Olivia: why, you know, it's like, it's like energy focused inward, but it's like you're just exhausted and it feels like there's no reason to be exhausted.

[00:02:29] Zach: I've never ran a marathon. I ran a half marathon one time and training for that. I ate like a monster every day cuz I was burning,

you know, hundreds of calories. Hundreds, thousands, whatever

[00:02:44] Victor: Dozens of calories.

[00:02:45] Zach: was. Bring tens of dozens of calories walk into the store. I have to train for this half marathon. But yeah. So I can only imagine if you're run like metabolically running a marathon every single day.

how much like food and sleep I would put away?

[00:03:03] Olivia: we went to breakfast the other day. It's like this diner place where they, they serve you big diner breakfast and I ordered a big diner breakfast, but also a side of pancakes. The waitress looked at me like, alright. I'm like, 

[00:03:22] Zach: I mean,

[00:03:23] Olivia: it's fine.

[00:03:23] Zach: are, are you showing yet? I can't really, I can never tell on our Google meets set up.

[00:03:30] Olivia: Yeah, I'm starting to, my favorite thing though is to tell people, because like family will be like, Ooh, I see a baby bump. My favorite thing is to just say, it's mostly just farts. And I think I might just keep saying that until I'm, until I'm, until I give birth. Really?

[00:03:48] Zach: That's when the joke will run its course.

It's a solid nine month bit.

[00:03:51] Victor: Another joke for a little while now when Olivia's taking a nap is that she's working on making the baby cute.

[00:03:58] Zach: Giving a beauty rest.

[00:04:00] Victor: Mm-hmm.

[00:04:02] Olivia: It's the size of an orange now.

[00:04:05] Zach: Well, that's a lot of farts.

[00:04:06] Olivia: Yeah.

[00:04:07] Zach: Speaking of pregnancy, did you, you had an update on the, uh, on last week's episode. 

[00:04:33] Olivia: Yeah. 

[00:04:34] Zach: you ready to get into it? 

[00:04:35] Olivia: yeah, we can do that. so I was thinking more about the Centar Dream. If you haven't listened to that episode, uh, you think I should give a recap or,

[00:04:45] Victor: Like a quick cap.

[00:04:47] Olivia: a quick

cab. 

[00:04:48] Victor: just a little nightcap.

[00:04:49] Olivia: All right.

[00:04:50] Victor: One for the road.

[00:04:51] Olivia: Uh, the dream was that I was walking through the forest at night and I was surrounded by centar carrying children that were either screaming or asleep. And, uh, a centar said to me, don't worry, you're not one of them. You should be proud.

And then I walked through a portal from the forest into a library, and there was a dad and a child in the library. And the, the i, I looked behind me, uh, through the portal and this ass clown, like tall, skinny clown monster came through the portal into the library and went past me and, and kind of went after the kid and snuck up on the kid and scared the kid and started kind of poking and prodding at this kid.

And then I beat the shit out of the clown and the clown poofed and disappeared. And the whole time the dad kind of didn't do anything. And when we were talking about it last week, the thing that I was stuck on was that the centar entry, like there were parts of it that I could make, make sense with our interpretation of the dream, but it didn't align with how I felt about the Centar in the dream.

Um, the, the dream Bible entry was like all about like selfish people trying to get more for themselves, trying to like, uh, get ahead and, um, and 

[00:06:24] Zach: Right, which, 

[00:06:24] Olivia: I, 

[00:06:25] Zach: which our inclination, or more specifically, I, I remember this being Victor's theory, is that it's about like your. History and feelings about like the archetype of an incompetent parent, but that didn't fit with your feelings about the centi. They, they didn't feel, uh, incompetent to you.

[00:06:42] Olivia: Victor's interpretation was that the centar were representative of a coping mechanism of mine. Um, and I'll get into that more in a minute here. But, um, anyway, basically the reason why I think I was stuck on this dream last week is that the centar entry, while I could make it fit with the content of the dream, I did not feel like it resonated with how I was experiencing this centar.

Um, I was experiencing them as like very like, neutral and calm and like they were not, um, Selfish or, um, trying to get ahead or like use advantages that did that did not feel right. And so I was like, I actually was in therapy and like told my therapist this dream and she was like, well, what do you like, what do you think about Centar?

and I realized that I do have thoughts about Centar. I have like my own preconceived notions about Centar, um, that I think is much more accurate. And, um, it mostly comes from Harry Potter for me.

[00:07:54] Zach: sure.

[00:07:54] Olivia: But like in Harry Potter, they are like, like lawful neutral. Like they are, they're not your buddy, they're not gonna be your friend, but like, they have a sense of justice and like they will step in to do the right thing when they are needed. Um, but other than that, they're kind of aloof. Like, it's not like they want to do that, but they will.

[00:08:14] Zach: Kind of Vulcan. 

[00:08:16] Olivia: yeah, and that felt correct with the dream. And then Victor and I were just talking, did you wanna get into what you were saying about it?

[00:08:27] Victor: Sure. Yeah. Um, so like in this dream, There's like this negligence, um, that's left these kids vulnerable. And so these centres have come through and like saved or picked up the kids. Um, but they're taking them to a place that Olivia's first instinct was to say it was a bad place. And then as we were doing the last episode, um, I think her feelings about that change is like, maybe not a bad place, like a different place or maybe like not an ideal place, but better than where they were or whatever it was.

Like what, where they ended up seemed to be kind of a sticking point for her. And uh, what I was saying is like Olivia does have like some protector. Instincts are like, like this is, this is her whole thing with the dreams with, uh, taking care of the dogs or everything. She's got a thing in her that, that says like, I have to be the one to step up and take care of everything and take care of everybody because no one else is gonna do it.

That kind of impulse in her, and I was saying like that probably comes from somewhere like that probably comes from some like experiences you had, uh, when you were younger or like something happened in your life that like shifted you to where that's how you, that's how you have to operate and there's like ways that that's helped you and then ways in which that's probably gotten into your way or like hurt you at times.

Um, it's a therapy thing. It's like a, why do I do this? Why do I leap into action to like help a person when something triggers me into thinking that like they need me to. Protect them or whatever. And um, yeah, so the centar are, would be like the positive protective, like parts that she likes, uh, about herself that do that, right.

That, um, step up to help other people. But then the negative place that, like her, her child's self is being carried to or whatever is like maybe some of the anxiety or the stress or like the stuff that gets in her way that comes from that same coping mechanism. Right.

[00:10:33] Olivia: And another thing is like, I said this in the last episode, but I felt like Centar didn't wanna be doing what they were doing. They just, they had to as the result of something that

[00:10:45] Zach: Right. They felt very dutiful.

[00:10:47] Olivia: yeah. And it felt like it was like that the parents. Were not there, or the parents were not doing their job and the centar had to step in and, and take action, and that, um, that was better than them not doing anything.

[00:11:06] Zach: Yeah, I remember joking that they had like a CPS kind of vibe.

[00:11:09] Olivia: Yeah. Yeah. But that, that's what we're saying. Like it's a protective thing that

[00:11:15] Victor: that

[00:11:17] Olivia: I am the Child Protective Services.

Um, 

[00:11:23] Zach: am the one who 

[00:11:24] Olivia: thing I thought when I was, I was thinking about it, I was like, like I know that you are every character in your dream, but like, when I was in that part, I was like, oh, I am a centar.

like, like it felt like I was, I was in this procession of centar. I was included in that, you know? And like, I just hadn't thought about that before. Like, oh, this is really a part of me. Um,

[00:11:52] Zach: Yeah,

[00:11:53] Olivia: Anyway, that, that interpretation really, that makes it, the whole interpretation that we did last week land for me,

[00:12:00] Zach: yeah, that's something, um, that's a question we should probably ask more often on this podcast. The, the one that your therapist asked you.

[00:12:09] Olivia: right?

[00:12:09] Zach: Cuz we, we know that obviously cuz we've talked about it in relation to the gestalt method that everyone in your dreams is you. 

[00:12:17] Olivia: Mm-hmm. 

[00:12:17] Zach: like, I don't know. Yeah, we asked like what the centar means.

Well, we asked Dream Bible, what the centar means, like historically, symbolically, whatever. And we asked how you felt about them. But we didn't think to ask how you feel about centar consciously, cuz that does inform what, why your subconscious would put them there.

[00:12:38] Olivia: Yeah, absolutely.

[00:12:40] Victor: Yeah. I think it's like, It, it, there's two sides to it, right? Like I think that Dream Bible has surprised us sometimes with like, what its interpretation is in a way that is like really cracked open, um, a dream for us when we maybe wouldn't have gotten there just thinking about like what those symbols mean to us.

But then if like a symbol's really not resonating, not just cuz like we don't want it to, but like, because it's not resonating, then Yeah. It makes sense to like think about, well maybe I have a totally different perception of this thing because of like, I mean the reason you have a strong, uh, and separate sense of centar is because you're a Harry Potter fan, right?

Yeah. And they were like representing Harry Potter in a particular way. And so you have a whole separate mythos there. Yeah. That's not like the common mythos.

[00:13:30] Olivia: and that's really baked into my childhood. Like I was a. Like a huge Harry Potter fan as a child and like, like huge. But like, that is the only, thing that is informed what I think about Centar. And it's like, don't know why I didn't think about that before. Cuz I totally have ideas about

Centar. 

[00:13:50] Zach: But dream Bible's probably gonna be based on the, you know, the centuries of mythology that came before Harry Potter.

[00:13:58] Olivia: Well,

[00:13:58] Victor: how people, well, I

[00:13:59] Olivia: it's 

not more influenced by Harry Potter, honestly.

[00:14:02] Zach: Yeah, What 

[00:14:02] Victor: I don't know. I don't know how old these surveys are. Is this all from like the nineties? I got no idea.

[00:14:08] Zach: That's a good question. We should look into that. It's also serendipitous, uh, or, um, what's the word, synchronistic, that this particular topic would come up today, cuz I was, this is gonna sound off topic, but uh, one of my favorite bands is called The Wonder Years. Um, and I haven't listened to the last couple of albums very much.

Um, but just today during my workout, I was listening to the newest one and there's a hook and one of the choruses, the, I just pulled up here and it goes, I know all the people in my dreams are just me. They're telling, they're telling me what I know already. it just, that, that caught my ear while I was listening to it.

And I was like, oh shit. That's something we talk about sometimes. And then we talked about it today.

[00:14:58] Victor: I thought it was gonna be a lyric about centar.

[00:15:00] Olivia: Yeah. I was like, we dream of centar 

[00:15:02] Zach: we dream of Centres. That'd be a cool band name

[00:15:05] Olivia: Um, 

[00:15:06] Zach: a early two thousands like scene band.

[00:15:09] Olivia: but like that really is true. Like and it's why this podcast is like vulnerable and like, um, uncomfortable sometimes, is that it's often telling you the things that like, you know, on just enough of a level, like, like there's levels of knowledge, right? There's things that you have like really come to terms with, but it's like dreams seem to operate on this level that is like the stuff that you haven't quite accepted and, and like incorporated into your view of yourself.

And that 

stuff 

is hard 

and it 

[00:15:43] Zach: you know it deeply subconsciously.

[00:15:45] Olivia: yeah. Or like, Somewhat consciously, but you're not quite ready to go there or, I don't know. That's why this podcast can be like, it can be hard to be in the hot seat,

uh, if you're not like, ready to go there. Or like, you might not be able to figure out what your dream means or, um, you might be uncomfortable with it because that's where it seems to wanna take us, you know?

[00:16:12] Victor: Like, what is that though? Like, cuz that seems to be kinda universal, right? Is like, there's this thing that is like, pushing you in the direction of growth, right? Of like, facing problems you're maybe avoiding or like doing the thing you're putting off cuz you're scared or like confronting the thing that you're scared of, confronting or whatever.

Like, where is that coming from? Is there just like, there's like a part of yourself that's always there, that's like, that knows exactly what you should be doing and you, it is just not accessible all the time Or like, what is that? I don't 

know. 

[00:16:49] Zach: I don't

know. It, it makes me want to believe in like the spooky woowoo side of this stuff more 

because I would love some of the dreams I've had. I would love to believe they're just like some deity or something or an angel talking to me that I can like disagree with because it's a separate entity. But to think it is me talking to myself as a little, like, uh, I guess I have to wrestle with this.

[00:17:13] Victor: Yeah.

Unless maybe your subconscious is at to get you, maybe. Maybe that's the real enemy.

[00:17:20] Olivia: I mean 

[00:17:21] Zach: I mean, it is, 

[00:17:22] Olivia: of brings you back to like the we are the universe thing like.

[00:17:27] Victor: I

[00:17:27] Olivia: I don't know, like I think people like sometimes like to externalize like higher power to the universe or some deity when it's like, because it's easier to be like, oh, this other thing is telling me the truth and that's more powerful than me.

[00:17:46] Victor: Mm-hmm.

[00:17:46] Olivia: But it, like, it is also, that's also kind of a way of giving up your power, um, rather than accepting that like you actually have that inside of you 

[00:17:57] Zach: Yeah, that's interesting. not to get all like weird, but I was, I read a study about, um, or a survey or fucking whatever, whatever it was. I read a thing, uh, that suggested that, um, prayer. has measurable positive effects, even for atheists, like,

[00:18:18] Victor: I believe that.

[00:18:19] Zach: like like across the board. Um, and it kind of confirmed for me this thing of where like, because I was raised like Christian or whatever, and like you had this idea of God being a man in the clouds and the, and I didn't really believe that.

Uh, so praying to me always felt like this weird like puppet show where you're talking to yourself, and somebody, and forget who kind of framed it for me in this way, where like, where they were like, well, you, you are talking to yourself. That's kind of the point. Like, if we're all one, we're all God. God is one thing, like it's all connected.

Then talking to God is talking to yourself. 

[00:18:56] Olivia: Yeah. 

[00:18:57] Zach: And that's, that's why you pray and that's, And after that I sort of understood the results of that, that survey thing. Cuz I, you know, I, I think it's akin to meditating. It's just, it's like having a, a, a board meeting with, with yourself and, and, and checking in with like, what's going on.

[00:19:17] Olivia: Yeah, 

[00:19:18] Zach: Yeah. Didn't expect that. Didn't expect to go there today, but,

[00:19:22] Victor: I feel like that's, um, that's one of those like cliches, um, that,

[00:19:29] Olivia: um,

[00:19:31] Victor: even though everyone's heard it a thousand times, like it's still really hard to wrap your head around it in a way that is healthy or that is actually real. You know, like a lot of people when they're, when they're really trying to like, understand that, come away from it feeling like, um, I.

Like a greatness or like, like a superiority in some way. Like, oh, I've seen the real truth of the universe and no one else is tapped into truth the way that I know truth or

whatever. 

It just like turns into this ego feeding kind of thing. And, um, yeah, it's like that, that's, that's one of those things that's like true, but can also really get away from you and carry you off in like crazy directions if you're not, like, if you don't have like a good hat on your

shoulders 

about 

[00:20:20] Zach: Bragging about ego. Death is always funny.

[00:20:23] Victor: right.

[00:20:24] Olivia: I talked to somebody at a party sometime last year, who like,

[00:20:30] Victor: it

[00:20:30] Olivia: sounded like they had recently done mushrooms and like, come to that conclusion. They, they had, they told me they did, but like, I was like trying to talk to them about it and they were operating on such a like, different level.

It's 

like,

[00:20:42] Victor: like inaccessible place. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:20:44] Olivia: like, 

oh yeah, but we're all like, we're literally all one. We're all like, you're not an individual. We are all the same thing. And it's like, I hear you. And like that might be true, but this is not people stuff. This is not earth stuff that you're talking about and you're not going to be to commune with the earthlings like this.

[00:21:05] Zach: Yeah.

[00:21:07] Olivia: it's like that level of it is just a little too, I don't know. Uh, you know, like you're, you're gonna alienate people if you operate there. Like even if you believe that to be true. It, it can, it can be kind of isolating at the same

[00:21:22] Victor: time, you know?

[00:21:23] Zach: Yeah, Cause 

[00:21:24] Victor: there's a lot of stuff. There's a lot of stuff that's like true from like an abstract, philosophical perspective, but also you just like fully can't carry it on into your life and continue to operate like a person, like you would just, like, you would just, uh, die.

You would immediately die.

[00:21:44] Zach: Just spontaneously combust. Yeah. I mean, the, the idea that you would be able to definitively know anything about what's beyond the veil, is, is, is kind of crazy. I mean, the, the idea that you're able to know anything like, you know, just EPIs, epistemologically, uh, e E even like in the physical world. Um, I don't know. Yeah. I just feel like this stuff needs to be talked about with I statements and, and a degree of humility and, and respect for the unknown.

[00:22:20] Victor: Yeah, no, I totally agree with that. I, I, I try to always operate, I mean, I do it on the podcast too, of like, we will, we will edge into stuff that feels kinda spooky or like, oh, maybe there's something else out there. And like, I feel strongly that you always have to leave room for doubt or you can get carried off into some crazy places.

You know, like you should always be questioning yourself. Always questioning like what conclusions you're coming to. Um, because the alternative is like you will, you'll, you'll, you'll see people that, um, kinda drive themselves crazy. You know, there's like a, there's a couple different ways to go crazy, and like, one, one of the ways is like you just ghost down, kind of like a poisonous line of thinking that carries you off into like a reality that is like far away from the rest of the world that the rest of us are living in.

[00:23:14] Olivia: Yeah.

[00:23:14] Zach: Yeah. yeah, if you pro, if you approach things with like a certain degree of like hard line conviction when you're met with like something that does genuinely challenge those convictions, it's embarrassing to like admit defeat at that point. So most people end up doubling down.

[00:23:33] Victor: Definitely,

[00:23:34] Olivia: like, if there's like a good question to ask some, like whether you're talking about like a political belief that they hold or like, um, a spiritual belief or anything like, is like, is there anything

that would shift your perspec, like, change your mind on this? If the answer is no, then like you're not operating in logic.

Um,

[00:23:57] Victor: yeah,

[00:23:57] Zach: No, that that's a passion, passion based stance.

[00:24:01] Victor: It's like you've, uh, you've, it's become part of your identity at that point. It's like, I am the person that believes this. If I didn't believe this, I wouldn't be the person

that I 

am. 

[00:24:12] Zach: Yeah. And you can't forfeit that.

[00:24:13] Victor: I like, I one, I can't remember where this came from, but something that stuck with me is I, uh, the way that a lot of people conceptualize God, like their perception of a God that they, that they, you know, is their God is really just like a super self.

It's like, because like there's no, there's no point on which you and God would disagree, right? So God, just because your understanding of God just becomes somebody that totally agrees with everything you think, and so you're carrying around this concept of like as if everything you think is like enshrined and sacred and is like the will of the universe or whatever.

It's just like you're kind of following yourself around as if it is absolute truth,

[00:25:00] Olivia: right and like right back to ego death, right? Like we're all God,

[00:25:06] Victor: Right. 

[00:25:07] Zach: I do like understand like the, a degree of what, you know, that archetype of a person is saying that that person at the party who just did mushrooms for the first time and is, is regaling you in, in the corner of the room yelling over the music about how we're all won and, and we're all, God, like I, I, I, feel like I can tune into that to a degree at certain times and, and get it.

But, but yeah, for the sake of humility, I don't pretend to get it fully, but my, my conception of God, I, I feel like does as much as prayer feels like checking in with myself, maybe that's closer to meditation than, than prayer. The times in my life when I felt the most spiritual, had more to do with other people.

Like,

like my conception of God has to do with being like plugged into like a greater network. And when I've, the, the most spiritual periods of my life have been periods of time when I'm like reconnecting with old friends, making new friends, like just generally, um, having community.

[00:26:15] Olivia: Yeah,

[00:26:16] Victor: I agree with that completely. Yeah. I, um, so, um, I've, I've done drugs before

and, 

[00:26:25] Zach: Victor, 

[00:26:26] Victor: I'm sorry, I'm sorry to, like, sorry to confess those under these circumstances, but, um, like I had, I, I had an experience where I went like, uh, way too far and I was definitely like ripping my clothes off and

screaming, like it 

was too 

[00:26:41] Zach: wait 

[00:26:41] Victor: It was, it was, it was mushrooms and it was just me, Olivia and Casper. They're our dog. And they, they were both very worried about me and I had just a whole

[00:26:53] Zach: Both the dogs, but Olivia was fine.

[00:26:57] Victor: Um, and there was like, there, like I def, I like fully ego death and then had like the most embarrassing possible like, oh, like everything's God, and I'm God kind of experience, right? Like, I had the, the like, stereotypical experience. But, um, I remember being like really struck at like, like I, I ended up in a place where like I really did believe that, uh, I kind of was, I was kind of the only thing that existed, right?

That everything else was just kind of like a manifestation. There was one thing, right? And I remember like being hit with just like a crushing like. Loneliness and like pointlessness of that, you know? 

And it was, it was very much like, uh, the experience I had was very much like, I was like living out my, like, like western bastardization of Buddhism that I got from Alan Watts over the last, like 10 years or whatever.

I was like experiencing this like Alan Watsy kind of, uh, description of this, this idea, right? But like, it felt, it felt all very true to me, you know? I don't know. And like I still carry parts of that with me. Um, but also it's like fully incompatible with, with being a human being, you know? And I remember like, um, like how I felt before I came back down, came back into reality was just like this like. Longing to be with people. You know, what I wanted was to be a person with other people and to be in the life that I already had and to be the person that I already was. I didn't wanna be like the thing that was like a way, like disconnected from all that stuff I wanted to be in my own life, you know?

[00:28:51] Zach: Yeah, that's, that's a big source of the anxiety that I feel when I get, uh, too high on marijuana. It's, it's, um, Because it feels good, like, like being high feels good, but like it gives me an maybe up until now, inexplicable anxiety and kind of now I'm just realizing in, in my, probably have to do with this, this feeling of, uh, isolation.

[00:29:16] Victor: Mm-hmm. 

[00:29:18] Zach: of, when I get too high, I do, I feel a little bit like, uh, a spaceman in a satellite or something and I'm looking down at earth and I just have to wait till the mission's over. You know, being high is a little bit like being on a rollercoaster where it's not, you can't stop it. You just have to wait for it to be over.

[00:29:35] Victor: no, that's true. And you get really sucked into your own thoughts and like within your own thoughts, you are isolated from others.

[00:29:42] Zach: Yeah. I've only done mushrooms once, but I had like, A perfect experience. And so now I'm afraid to do it again because I don't wanna ruin.

I feel, I feel like with my anxiety, uh, like, uh, psychedelics could potentially be very bad for me

[00:30:02] Victor: I

[00:30:03] Olivia: I think ev, most people should do mushrooms once a

year. 

[00:30:06] Zach: once a year. Yeah. Well, yeah, I probably do.

[00:30:10] Olivia: I say most people, not, not everyone,

[00:30:13] Victor: everybody. Yeah. But I do, I do think it's broadly beneficial for

people. 

[00:30:17] Zach: yeah. That one time I had a great time and I've, I've, I was so scared to do it and then after that I was like, well, I did it and it was great so I don't have to do it again. Um, 

I, I saw The shins at Red Rocks.

[00:30:30] Olivia: Oh, 

that sounds nice. Yeah.

[00:30:32] Victor: it does

sound like a 

good 

[00:30:33] Zach: Yeah. 

And 

[00:30:35] Olivia: guitar player for the shins served us empanadas. Yeah.

The other 

[00:30:39] Zach: that's funny cuz the guitar player. I, I don't know if she was the original or not. This must have been like 2012. Uh, she fucked up the first song, like she played the intro to the first song and did it in the wrong key at, at Red Rocks, 

[00:30:57] Olivia: Oh, 

[00:30:58] Zach: and they had to start the song over. And when they did, everyone cheered like supportively and my mushroom in my mushroom brain.

I was like, I was freaking out. Cause I was like, the world is so full of forgiveness and beauty. And uh, and then, and then I went to the bathroom and the walls did, did a jiggly thing and I laughed 

and 

[00:31:22] Olivia: to the 

wobbly 

room? 

[00:31:23] Zach: went to the wobbly room and I peed all over my shoes and laughed about it. And, and it was a great day.

[00:31:29] Victor: Yeah, once a year. Once a year. You should. You should do that. I dunno, I, I do understand the anxiety concern, but I also feel like that that kind of experience never takes you to the place that you think or are worried you're gonna go. Yeah. You always end up somewhere different like the, like you think, oh, I'm gonna stress out about, uh, how me and my dad are fighting about this.

And instead you end up stressing out about how like your pet turtle doesn't love you the same way that it used to, or whatever. You know, just, you end up in a totally different place. The thing that's really gonna trigger you is not what you think it is.

[00:32:06] Olivia: yeah.

[00:32:08] Zach: Yeah, luckily that day I, I got sucked into the forgiving, beautiful nature of the universe. But, you know, I feel like place and time and people have a lot to do with it. I mean,

[00:32:20] Victor: totally.

[00:32:20] Zach: red Rocks with a bunch of Shins fans. I mean, it was a pretty, uh, beautiful place to. To be totally off your rocker.

[00:32:29] Olivia: Yeah.

[00:32:30] Victor: Yeah.

[00:32:30] Olivia: I'm not gonna fully get into this story, but the first time I did mushrooms, I rode in an ambulance.

[00:32:36] Zach: Okay.

[00:32:37] Victor: It wasn't her ambulance,

[00:32:38] Olivia: it was for someone else. Yeah. But I was, yeah, that was, uh, not the best experience.

[00:32:46] Victor: That sounds really bad. Yeah.

[00:32:48] Zach: I'm not gonna get into this story, but here's a extremely compelling first sentence.

[00:32:55] Victor: Gonna have to sign up for the Patreon. We don't have, if 

you 

[00:32:58] Zach: Oh shit. 

[00:32:59] Victor: story.

[00:33:01] Zach: Well, maybe someday

[00:33:02] Olivia: Well, 

[00:33:03] Zach: you can all pay to hear the rest of that story. Is that when you met Fred Armisen?

[00:33:07] Olivia: no,

[00:33:09] Victor: it was his ambulance

[00:33:12] Zach: He wasn't 

injured, he was driving it. 

[00:33:15] Victor: Oh. He's been collecting vintage ambulances for decades now. And

[00:33:21] Olivia: No, I, I was at a music festival peaking on L S D and I saw Fred Armisen walking. Down the path over yonder and I swear to God, I turned off drugs for like two minutes. I was like, I have to 

go 

say hi 

to Fred Armisen. I just flipped a switch. I, cuz I was like sitting in the circle staring at a blade of grass for like 10 minutes and like could not talk.

And I

saw 

[00:33:51] Zach: if I had that superpower, I would do drugs every day.

[00:33:55] Olivia: I know

[00:33:56] Victor: I've heard of people doing that in life or death situations. Yeah. And to meet Fred Armisen.

Yeah. 

[00:34:04] Zach: you sure it 

[00:34:04] Victor: two situations of which I've heard people

able to 

do 

[00:34:07] Zach: was it Fred Armisen or was it a man of vague ethnicity?

[00:34:11] Olivia: It was Fred Armisen and I,

[00:34:14] Victor: the picture to

prove it. 

[00:34:15] Zach: Oh, 

[00:34:15] Olivia: yeah. I fully went, went up to him, had a normal conversation. We took a selfie. I told him I love him, and sent him on his merry way. And then I went and sat back down in the circle and tripped balls

[00:34:27] Victor: We would need his four hours. We need his confirmation that that was a normal conversation, though.

I'm not willing to take your word on it, that that was a normal conversation.

[00:34:37] Zach: Yeah. Was it normal? Normal or like, did he do any bits? 

[00:34:41] Olivia: It was so normal. I, I remember it exactly. I just was like, hi, like I really love you, but can we take a picture? And he was like, you're so sweet. Yes. And that was it.

It was very 

[00:34:53] Zach: picture him. I can. I can picture him. Oh, you're so sweet. 

[00:34:56] Olivia: Yeah, 

[00:34:57] Zach: do it. Fred Armisen impression, but that, that's the cadence I hear.

[00:35:01] Olivia: Yeah. He was really nice. Um,

[00:35:03] Zach: I thought it would look fucking real. I think you should leave for the listener.

[00:35:10] Victor: get me going on TV

corner. 

[00:35:12] Zach: Yeah. Just citing my sources for the listening.

[00:35:17] Victor: I saw I an article the other day that was like, um, I think You should leave, has destroyed my boyfriend's brain. just like this woman complaining about how whenever a new season of that show drops, just like for like a month, her boyfriend is just, just saying quotes from that show, pretty much non fully communicating in, in bits from, I think you should leave.

[00:35:40] Olivia: That's how I feel after a new season of that show

comes 

out. 

[00:35:43] Zach: It's so 

[00:35:44] Victor: Yeah, I was gonna say, it's like we've got like a gender swap of that, but you're not quite that annoying.

[00:35:49] Olivia: No.

[00:35:52] Zach: My favorite one from this new season is, uh, it really bothered me.

[00:35:58] Olivia: I don't, I need to re-watch it. It's like it goes so 

fast and 

[00:36:02] Zach: Yeah, it's 

[00:36:03] Olivia: haven't retained enough of it to, to quote the new season yet.

So 

we'll get on that and 

then 

I'll 

be 

[00:36:09] Zach: remember the,

[00:36:10] Victor: No 

problem. 

[00:36:11] Zach: the, the sketch about the doggy door with, 

with the 

pig and the Nixon Max 

[00:36:17] Olivia: Okay. I died. 

[00:36:19] Zach: There, there's a 

part in that where he's talking about, uh, how he hasn't been sleeping well since a swing dancer, uh, spun his wife upside down eight times at a wedding, and he goes, it, he goes, it really bothered me.

[00:36:39] Olivia: That's a great show.

you will either love it or hate it. Go check it out.

[00:36:44] Zach: you wanna get into a dream?

[00:36:48] Olivia: Sure.

[00:36:50] Zach: Do you mind if I go pee first?

[00:36:53] Olivia: yes.

[00:36:54] Victor: Can you take us with you?

[00:36:56] Zach: Take the laptop with me.

[00:36:58] Victor: Yeah.

[00:36:58] Olivia: we watch?

[00:36:59] Zach: You can watch my face.

[00:37:01] Victor: All 

right, 

[00:37:02] Zach: No peeing though.

[00:37:05] Victor: Walden.

Nevermind. 

[00:37:06] Zach: All right. That that's, you have to sign up for the Patreon for that.

[00:37:12] Olivia: yeah, I guess, um, I've had some like themes popping up in my dreams lately. I have had several dreams. Uh, Where Victor and I are having sex and my family's just like busting in.

[00:37:50] Zach: Oh, yikes. 

[00:37:52] Olivia: yeah. So that's, that's happened like three or four times.

It's like a different family member every time. They're just like, they keep walking in and it's like, can you not? I,

[00:38:01] Victor: Um, 

[00:38:02] Zach: they like casual about it? Like they,

[00:38:04] Olivia: yeah. They're

like, 

yeah, 

[00:38:05] Zach: they're not 

like, oh my God, I'm so sorry. And then close the door. They're like, Hey, can I use your bathroom or 

whatever. 

[00:38:11] Victor: exactly. 

[00:38:12] Olivia: It's like, that seems pretty, um, self-explanatory

to me, 

honestly. 

[00:38:16] Zach: Yeah. That seems to have to do with the whole holding the baby thing we talked about.

[00:38:20] Victor: Yeah.

[00:38:20] Olivia: Yeah, and just like I, I've also like in reflecting on that, like. Holding the baby is like one thing, but it's not really about the baby. Like, it's not really about holding the baby. That's just like one thing that I'm like pinning this on, but like, really it's that I want space for me. Like I don't feel comfortable with

people. 

[00:38:44] Zach: It's about the, the whole period of time when you're giving birth. 

[00:38:48] Olivia: Yeah. 

Like that is intensely vulnerable and um, yeah, 

I just, I don't really 

want 

anybody. 

[00:38:58] Zach: fucking, in fact, it's the result of fucking.

[00:39:02] Olivia: Yeah. It's like I, it feels like that, like, uh, like I heard someone say like, don't have anyone over that you wouldn't have your tits out in front of it, cuz it's like if you feel, are feeling like you have to cover up your, your titties

like, 

[00:39:17] Zach: Right, which is what feeds the baby.

[00:39:20] Olivia: Yeah, because you're gonna like, literally for like a while, you're gonna be on bedrest with your tits out.

And so like, yeah, just don't have anyone over that you feel like you wouldn't want them to see you in that state. Like you shouldn't have to be like accommodating other people. Um, 

[00:39:40] Zach: Yeah. 

[00:39:41] Olivia: and

anyway. 

[00:39:42] Zach: You should also be allowed to breastfeed out in the wild if you want, but,

[00:39:47] Olivia: Totally

[00:39:48] Zach: but you shouldn't, and you know, you should also be allowed to do it completely privately.

[00:39:55] Olivia: right. I, I guess I just mean like, like, I'm gonna be topless and wearing a diaper for a while. Like they don't need to be 

coming 

over. 

[00:40:07] Zach: Yeah. 

[00:40:08] Olivia: But 

my like mini interpretation of that recurring dream is like, a big part of that time is gonna be like Victor and I like kind of in that like newborn bliss, right?

Like you get, like, there's hard things about postpartum, but also like he gets to not work for a little while, you know, he's gonna go on leave and we're gonna have like this precious once in a lifetime. Uninterrupted time with our, our child that is like so precious and like we should savor it. And it feels like the most special thing that we're going to have together, that we're going to enjoy together, which we knows like Sex in a Dream is about something you're enjoying or you find it pleasurable.

Um, 

[00:40:56] Zach: probably 

[00:40:56] Olivia: having family come in and interrupt that feels like an, an interruption of something, um, enjoyable, right? Uh, to me that is how I feel. I know not everybody feels that way, and that's like. I just think that, um, well, everyone knows what I think. It's just whatever you want for that time in your life is the most important thing.

And for me, um, I think I'm gonna want some space. And so that has been very present on my mind. Um,

[00:41:29] Victor: Well, you and I are both people that like, Uh, around other, when there are other people around, we feel like a certain responsibility to like, take care of them, make sure that they're happy, everything's good, and we like to, to like serve the needs of other people.

And even if they're not asking that of us, it just like, just having somebody else around kind of triggers that in us. And I think it's like the desire to just like not have that impulse. And the only way to not feel as if you're responsible for other people is to just have them not there.

[00:42:06] Olivia: Yeah. Yeah.

That's like, that's a big thing. Like I feel like we both are, um, sort of stifled versions of ourselves in the presence of not everybody, like, you know, certain close friends were like able to like, you know, but um, yeah. In, in certain settings, like we, we don't feel, neither of us quite feel like we're able to just like be ourselves and, um, Not to speak for you, but

[00:42:38] Victor: no, I think that makes, I think like, um, the people that, that listen to this podcast that also know us in real life probably like, know that we are different versions of ourselves here than we are like in certain social situations.

And it's partly because like we have come to a place, we've been doing this for a while and we're able to do this in a way where it really does feel like the three of us. And so we're comfortable here and like for myself at least when I'm out around people, even if I, even if I really like the people that I'm around, I find it very hard to be my, my authentic self.

I just feel this need to like kind of. I don't know. I don't know what it is, but I have a very hard time relaxing and being myself, and that's part of why I find it like, draining, you know, like it feels connected to introvert stuff, you know?

[00:43:29] Olivia: Yeah.

[00:43:30] Zach: Mm-hmm.

[00:43:31] Olivia: And 

so like,

[00:43:32] Victor: like, 

[00:43:32] Zach: content. 

[00:43:33] Victor: yeah, I,

[00:43:34] Olivia: I, I, I feel like, um, while for the people who wanna come visit, like to them, it's like they're getting to like, have a visit and spend time.

But, um, you know, for, the way it feels to me is like time that I am not getting to be fully, like, guard down, relaxed and like in my element with my person who I feel, um, totally

[00:44:03] Victor: totally.

[00:44:05] Olivia: comfortable in my like, raw state with, you know, I don't feel that way with other people.

[00:44:11] Victor: Totally. 

[00:44:11] Olivia: And so it's like the time that people wanna come, like, and it's like people have great intentions of wanting to like, spend time there and help with things, but that still feels like time that I don't get to be,

[00:44:25] Zach: That's a classic archetype. The person who comes over and is like, I'm gonna help you. Uh, where's the silverware drawer? 

[00:44:33] Victor: Right? 

[00:44:34] Zach: it's like a new hire, you know, like, I'm here to help. I'm enthusiastic. Can you train me real quick though?

[00:44:41] Olivia: right,

right. 

right. 

[00:44:42] Zach: Um, and I know you guys don't need me to like validate your feelings again, but like that the, yeah, that, that special time you're talking about when you're a new family for the first time, it's your first kid.

Maybe if this was your like fourth kid and it was your fourth rodeo, it would be different. But this is a very special time. And like, once Victor has to go back to work and you've established a routine with your new kid, it's still gonna be a baby. And, and.

[00:45:11] Olivia: gonna be

newborn. 

[00:45:13] Zach: that wants to see it can see it, then like it's, it's not going to, they don't have to be there right at the second that you're, um, figuring out, know, what your new life looks like.

[00:45:25] Victor: Yeah,

[00:45:25] Olivia: yeah, 

This is a good segue into the next couple of dreams that I have here, um, that are both short, but 

we don't have to like, interpret these fully, but I, I, I think these, these just connect. Um, so anyway, uh, uh, the next couple of dreams that I had are like, Um, kind of like home invasion dreams. the first one, Victor and I wake up in our house, but it's the house I grew up in and, he's like letting the dogs go outside. And I am like standing in between the kitchen and the living room and I see there's like a man asleep on our couch and I say, Victor, get in here.

And like, I'm like, get in here now. And he comes in and, and this uh, this man is kind of like getting up off the couch and like he was not supposed to be there. We didn't know who he was. He was just like some random guy. And he is like coming over to us and we're like, get out of our house. What the fuck are you doing here?

And he's kind of got this like, Smirk on his face, like, and he is like, not saying much, I don't know. It was very creepy. And like he's sort of going towards the door, but then he's like walking back and we're like, no, no, no, no. Like out the door. And at one point he grabbed like a kitchen knife and was like, kind of like lazily, like, he was like, I'm gonna stab you.

But it was like not, it was very weird. And he was just like, kind of we just like, Had to like usher this like guy out the door. And then we closed the door behind him and I made a comment like, God, it's like getting a spider out of the house.

[00:47:07] Victor: And

[00:47:07] Olivia: um, I realized the dogs were still outside and like this person felt like unsafe.

And he, and he was kind of just like milling around right outside. And I like stuck my head out and I was like, get the fuck off of our property. And he like, kind of walked towards the driveway, but then like kind of didn't, I don't know, you know, he just wouldn't leave. He like was like dilly delling.

Um, 

[00:47:31] Victor: he, 

[00:47:32] Zach: I've, I've had to kick a drunk guy out of a bar before.

[00:47:35] Olivia: yeah, like that. and then the second dream that I had the other night was I was, um, so where we record our, the podcast, uh, is like a kind of detached, uh, it's like a, a shop. We have like a little recording area in our wood shop. Um, And so, uh, in my dream, I was coming back to the house from out here and I had like kind of an arm full of stuff and I like spilled something and was trying to clean it up.

And then I get into the house and like I immediately step in dog shit. And it was like small, it was like a small dog poop. Like it didn't look like my dog's poop. And then my mom and my sister are in the house and my sister kind of like, oh, I don't think I stepped in the shit. I think I stepped over it.

And I was like, about to clean it up. And then my sister stepped in it immediately and I was like, um, trying to clean it up. And then I walk over to the front door and I see our, our front door has a window on it. And I see this, I see a bear and I say like, oh my God, there's a bear at the front door.

Um, But it wasn't quite a bear. It was like, I got closer and it had like this, like a man's face, like a human face with this like weird, hairy, dark, like bear skin. Um, and like, and, and it had this, this big hunched, hairy bear back, but it looked like a, I don't know, like a humanoid bear monster thing. And I like tried to lock the door, but it, it like somehow got its fingers through the crack of the door and it was like reaching these long fingers around to try and like unlock the door again.

And I was trying to hold the, the door shut. And, and I asked my mom, I was like, is that a bear? And she was like, I think it's a bat. Which I don't know what that means. It didn't look like a bat at all. Um,

[00:49:37] Victor: 

Uh,

[00:49:37] Olivia: She was like, yeah, I think your dad is, is taking him in. It was like, my dad was like giving this bear guy like a place to stay and eventually this bear thing like gave up and like kind of like gestured over his shoulder and like walked over to a car. It was like my dad's car was in the drive.

It was like my dad gave this bear a ride over. Um, and the bear like walks over the car and like three little bear cubs follow him and they like, I guess they leave. That was the dream.

[00:50:07] Zach: So sorry, were those both dreams?

[00:50:10] Olivia: Yep.

[00:50:12] Zach: Okay. So the bear dream was separate from the, uh, man on the couch dream. 

Okay. Sorry I missed the, uh, transition.

[00:50:20] Olivia: right. Sorry, I was kind of rambling through it, but they're, they were kind of close like. Maybe a night between them, but like the same week and they, they felt like home invasion kind of dreams. I don't know. That seems to be like the

theme 

[00:50:36] Zach: Right, but one was like an, like a drifter or some kinda, you know, vagabond like wandering in your house for shelter and then not wanting to leave, and the other is like a monster trying to get in.

[00:50:53] Victor: yeah.

[00:50:54] Olivia: Yeah. Which there's like 

some, 

[00:50:57] Zach: like two different stories, but a similar feeling, I imagine.

[00:51:01] Olivia: yeah. Something also like as I was retelling it, like the long fingers reminded me of the clown in

my 

[00:51:09] Zach: Mm-hmm. 

[00:51:10] Olivia: Mm. 

Yeah. But I guess Like what has been really present on my mind is just like, like I was just saying that like Victor and I both feel like when we are alone, we can be like, at ease and,

and wanting to preserve the time that we have with our kid in that state, you know, because there's gonna be like lots of settings in which there's other people around and we're not going to be able to feel that level of,

um, relaxation and like authenticity in those moments.

And like, so just wanting to like preserve, um, These like precious moments with our child where we get to fully experience them in our comfortable states.

[00:52:03] Victor: Mm-hmm.

[00:52:04] Zach: Yeah.

[00:52:05] Olivia: I think that's

what 

[00:52:06] Zach: Yeah. So even though these, these home invasion dreams have a much more, um, aggressive or malicious sort of, um, tone to 'em, they're definitely related to the family walking in on you guys having sex dreams, right? Like, and in terms of like, like privacy and

[00:52:27] Victor: It seems like it. That's at least our first thought. 

[00:52:31] Olivia: Mm-hmm.

[00:52:33] Zach: maybe it's like two different, um, outlooks on privacy or like, like, I don't know. Let's get into it.

[00:52:43] Victor: Yeah. Well, those are more recent right. Than the, um, than the family walking in on us, than

[00:52:50] Olivia: Yeah.

[00:52:51] Victor: in on us. Yeah. Okay.

[00:52:52] Olivia: Yeah. They maybe are like the evolution of that actually.

[00:52:56] Victor: Yeah. Do you feel like you, your feelings on this have gotten more intense Yeah. Over time,

[00:53:02] Olivia: Yeah. Yeah. 

[00:53:03] Victor: I

think it 

[00:53:03] Zach: feels like a, 

[00:53:04] Victor: like an

escalation. 

[00:53:06] Zach: a greater trespass. 

[00:53:08] Olivia: Yeah.

[00:53:09] Victor: Yeah.

[00:53:11] Olivia: Um, and I think like I, there's not really, I don't really feel the need to like pick this apart. Um, like it, it feels like I know what these dreams are about. Um, but like, hang on a second. oh yeah. something we've been talking about is like, like, uh, I'm gonna be setting, I, I'm gonna have some boundaries. It's just like, right now, it's all like a thing in the future. Like, because, uh, we haven't said it yet, you know, and so I think all of this like energy is like pent up because I'm I have these strong feelings about it, and it can't, it feels like I'm pinning the boundaries on like, well, that can happen when the baby gets here,

[00:54:00] Victor: Mm-hmm.

[00:54:01] Olivia: but like, um, maybe not a good way to look at it.

Like I, I think that that like, as, I don't know, that like almost puts it on like the baby, as the, the reason why boundaries are okay. Whereas it's like, I feel like I should, we should be working on setting these boundaries and, and other boundaries, um, ahead of time so that it's not like, well, once the baby's here, there's boundaries, you know?

[00:54:29] Zach: Sure. Yeah.

[00:54:31] Victor: Yeah. That's a really good way to think about it. Yeah. Because, um, there might be ways in which we could, you know, be a little firmer about our own boundaries now, right. That it'd have to do with us, you know, like just, uh, just something I. Think about sometimes as someone that, like, if there's, like, if there's a conflict, I tend to blame myself.

If there's an issue, it's like, oh, I fucked up. You know, like it's a, I'm, the, the way I tend to operate is that I will turn a lot of negative stuff inward instead of outward. And so, like, something that is helpful for me sometimes is to remind myself, like, if it, like, um, if a stranger was experiencing this, would that be okay?

Like, what would, what would I tell a stranger to do if they were having this experience? You know, where like, maybe I feel my boundaries are being crossed or whatever. It's like it, for some reason, it's like easier for me to give like a hypothetical person, I don't know, like agency and self-respect and autonomy in a way that I wouldn't always give it to myself, you know, because I'm just sent that in me.

It's like, oh, if someone's unhappy, that's your fault, Victor. You know? And so that's, that's the thing I'm working on.

[00:55:50] Olivia: and that's like kind of what I mean too, where it's like, I feel like me, well now that there's a baby involved, that's a good enough reason to have boundaries for the 

baby,

[00:56:03] Victor: but not for you.

[00:56:04] Olivia: That is not setting a good example for my child, and that is putting some weird shit onto this kid that is, that is putting my shit onto this kid.

[00:56:14] Victor: which is the opposite of what we wanna

[00:56:16] Olivia: That's 

not what I wanna do. That is 

like, That is like using a child to have boundaries for myself and I don't wanna do that.

[00:56:24] Victor: Yeah. It's like before the kid even exists, it's already like factored into some like social, like gamesmanship.

[00:56:31] Olivia: Yeah. I'm not trying to do that. 

[00:56:33] Zach: This is gonna feel like a, a complete tangent, but I swear it's related to what you guys are saying about, um, not thinking about yourself maybe as much as you should. I, I had a revelation one day, uh, back when I was drinking a lot. I remember I woke up really hungover one day right before work, and I had to go into work super early, and I was just miserable.

I, I just, I felt, I felt like total dog shit. And, uh, I muttered under my breath what I meant to say to no one, just to myself. What I meant to say was, I wouldn't wish this upon my worst enemy. But what I accidentally said, because I was probably still kind of drunk, was I said, I wouldn't do this to my friends.

Like, like I kind of got it twisted. I kind of got the idiom mixed up, but then that was kind of profound because I was 

[00:57:25] Victor: Yeah. 

[00:57:25] Olivia: Yeah. 

[00:57:26] Zach: was like, that's true. I wouldn't do this to my friends. Like if 

I, 

[00:57:29] Victor: So why am I doing this? To me, I wouldn't do this to my

friends. 

[00:57:32] Zach: If I had, uh, the ability to drink all I wanted and then push the hangover, uh, or, or if every time I got drunk, the hangover went to not even a buddy, a stranger, I would just never drink again, because that's how much I respect other people more than myself.

[00:57:50] Victor: right.

It's 

[00:57:51] Zach: And that's a crazy way to be.

[00:57:53] Victor: Hey, is it cool with you if I get trashed tonight and I feel like garbage all day tomorrow, are you, are you, do you think that's the right choice for me? Like, no.

[00:58:05] Zach: Yeah. Like, Hey, it's my birthday. Would you mind handling my hangover for me? Like, no, I would never do that. Uh, so why would I do it to myself? And, uh, that was, that was sort of a game changer. I, I still, I'm still working on respecting myself as much as I do other people. Uh, but, uh,

[00:58:25] Victor: But what is that and

[00:58:27] Olivia: I don't know. 

[00:58:27] Victor: That's like a, that's a therapy thing.

[00:58:31] Olivia: It's a, yeah, I mean, 

We've read 

a book all about what this is about.

[00:58:36] Victor: That's true. Yeah. We're, we've read a

really 

interesting, 

[00:58:38] Zach: that book called? 

[00:58:39] Olivia: finds this relatable, uh, you should read the book. It's called, uh, adult Children of Emotionally

Immature 

Parents.

[00:58:46] Victor: really, 

[00:58:47] Zach: you've referenced that before. Yeah.

[00:58:48] Victor: it's very good. It's very, very good. I thought I had a personality, um, like I thought I existed as like an individual person and like, like I thought like I just, I was a person, but I'm not. I'm a, I'm a series of symptoms of 

childhood trauma that are listed in a book. You can pretty much boil me down in like a paragraph or two, and that's what I've learned

from this 

[00:59:12] Zach: Wait, what's 

what? Say the name again.

[00:59:14] Olivia: is called Adult Children of Emotionally Immature Parents.

[00:59:19] Victor: I'm what you'd call an internalizer

[00:59:21] Zach: See, I don't know.

[00:59:22] Victor: Yeah. 

[00:59:23] Zach: I don't think I had emotionally immature parents. I think I had great parents, but I feel like I would still get something out of this book just based on the archetypes that you're describing.

[00:59:34] Victor: Yeah. I mean the book is definitely focused on like, here's how dynamics with like parents that have their own baggage can like result in certain like psychic malformations in you or whatever. But I do think there's a lot of ways, like a lot of experiences you can, uh, go through that can land you in the same place of like falling into the book really gets into the idea of like internalizers and externalizers and what, like what those two um, concepts represent are really just a person that is like off kilter.

From like, like too far in one way or the other from like a baseline healthy self perception where like you are, uh, seeing yourself clearly, which is what we're trying to do when we ask ourselves like, well, would I treat a friend like this? Would I treat a stranger like this? You are trying to get to a place where you're, you're treating yourself as a normal person.

Like you should like, like with a. Correctly proportioned ego and concept of self. And like an internalizer is someone that goes too, too far in the direction of like undervaluing themselves, putting themselves under other people, blaming themselves. And an externalizer is a person that goes too far in the direction of, I'm great.

I'm like, any problem I have is someone, el is 

external to me. My problems are all external to me. And an internalizer is, all of my problems are internal to me. I'm to blame for whatever problems come my way. And, um, they're both unhealthy and there's all sorts of ways to end up in one of those two camps, right?

But like, when you kind of have a framework for it and under better understanding of it, like you maybe get a little more self-aware about it and move in the direction of having a healthy sense of self, uh, it's, it's a

good book. 

[01:01:24] Zach: You know what's interesting is the, the externalizer, that archetype, that is the person that I, uh, expect to have conspiracy theories. 

[01:01:32] Victor: Sure. 

[01:01:33] Zach: conspiracy theorist I've ever met kind of seems like that kind of person, where it's like I cannot possibly be at fault for how fucked I am in life. So it has to be a conspiracy.

There's something bigger at play that's keeping me from succeeding. 

[01:01:48] Victor: yeah, 

[01:01:49] Zach: of just blew my mind. Cuz the internalizer, that's like an inside job. All your conspiracy theories are about yourself, 

[01:01:57] Victor: yeah. How did I do this? To

[01:01:59] Olivia: Mm-hmm. 

[01:02:00] Victor: What did I do that caused this problem? Yeah.

[01:02:02] Olivia: well, so like that, um, Coming back to like some of the stuff we've been talking about in these dreams, like the responsibility I feel for like fixing shit is like very much that

[01:02:18] Victor: it's an internalizer

[01:02:19] Olivia: it is, but I'm also like grappling with, uh, and like this is coming out in me as like, I don't know, like maybe a little bit of like anger and stuff, but like, I feel like,

like I'm grappling with like some of the reasons, like the ways that I've been shaped to be this way. And like realizing, like you said, where it's like you're, when you've been boiled down to like an archetype and it's like, it's actually because of like these experiences you had that aren't your fault.

It's like hard to grapple with that where it's like, yeah, I guess like I'm kind of wrestling with myself around that lately. Um, and trying to like set boundaries and like, and like the idea of like, well, I don't want this for my kid.

But then at the same time, like pushing the boundaries off until the kid comes is like, um, kind of putting it on the kid again. It's like, how do I navigate this? You know? It's like complicated.

[01:03:27] Victor: Yeah. You do it without even thinking about it. Right. And like that is how, um, like that's how generational trauma gets, uh, Perpetuated, right.

Is like, because something's like baked into you, you don't even, you're not even aware that you're doing it. Right. Yeah. And then like, you just are going, you're just like surviving and navigating stuff the best that you can. And it's only gonna be like 30 years from now that your kid is gonna come to you and be like, you did this to me. What's wrong with you? And then they're gonna do it to their kid. And like, it just, like, it takes a lot of like conscious effort and a lot of work to just like, like reduce the amount that you're gonna do that.

[01:04:08] Olivia: Yeah. 

[01:04:09] Zach: A certain degree of that feels inevitable though, doesn't it?

[01:04:12] Olivia: Yeah.

Totally. 

[01:04:13] Zach: I mean, I, I just said that thing about how I think my parents were great and perfect, but maybe I just have yet to unpack what they did.

[01:04:20] Victor: Well without, without like involving your parents in any way, like, I would say that like, um, You and I seem like similar people and we have some like similar like hangups. And I'm reading this book and I'm like, oh my God, everything in this book is like exactly my experience. Like to a t How do they know the name of my teacher in third grade?

What the fuck is this? Um, so like, I recommend that you read it because it might also resonate with

you. 

[01:04:48] Zach: Yeah.

[01:04:50] Olivia: Yeah. And like a, a thing that that book talks about a couple of things is like, I, I, I see why it can be like daunting to read a book with that title because it when you feel like, well, my parents were great.

One thing it does get into is there's, there are different types of like emotional immaturity and there are different degrees to which it can display in somebody. So like, um, that's just like to preface it, but, but also, um,

[01:05:18] Victor: yeah, I

[01:05:19] Olivia: don't know. It.

[01:05:20] Victor: I

[01:05:21] Olivia: like if what we're talking about is relatable, then you might find 

[01:05:25] Zach: Yeah. 

[01:05:26] Olivia: that book, um,

useful in one way or another.

[01:05:31] Zach: I think potentially the thing with, with my parents is that they were both individually happened to be great parents, so they were both really great to me and I have a great relationship with both of them to this day independently. But I don't think they had a, not think, I know they didn't have a great relationship with each other.

They're, they're long since divorced. Um, so as good as they were to me, there was probably something about their relationship that was emotionally immature that I grew up witnessing, and that's something that I haven't unpacked yet, so.

[01:06:06] Victor: There's a 

[01:06:07] Olivia: lot in there about like, um, parents who. Are not on the same with each, same page with each other. How that like affects their dynamics with their kids. Um, this is all unconscious too. Like a big thing it talks about is like this, this is not about blaming people, you know, like all of this is about, people's development.

Like people develop based on the way that their parents raised them. Your parents are influenced by the way their parents raised 

them. You're influenced by the way your parents raise you, et cetera. And like, it's just, it's like out of people's control to a certain extent. Um,

[01:06:46] Victor: yeah. I mean it's like, so I, um, like I, I have some like very like. Out in the open, obvious stuff with, with, uh, my parents were like, I don't, uh, like I have not talked to my mom in a long time. Like we, like I have like, um, it's easy for me to be like, oh, okay, there was some problems with my parents and so sure, this makes sense if I have stuff like this.

Like obviously there was stuff with my parents, so it's there. I can understand like being very uncomfortable with even approaching something like this if you feel like you have good relationships with your parents. But like, it, it is, um, I, I don't think that it has to be like a blamey thing of 

[01:07:31] Zach: Chair. 

[01:07:31] Victor: oh, you were, you were bad to me and that's why I have these, it doesn't have to be that.

It's just like getting a better understanding of like, Like if it resonates with you or like if any part of it resonates with you, getting a better understanding of maybe like what your patterns are, why you're maybe operating in a way that you are that's like, not beneficial to you, and then how can you start moving in a direction of, um, being a healthier person.

[01:07:57] Zach: Yeah, 

[01:07:58] Victor: if you read it, it's like there's, they have what, like six or eight different like archetypes of like, like ways in which like stuff can manifest that causes, that can cause this sort of developmental stuff in, you know, it's like they can be everything from like, someone that just, uh, isn't as present as they should be.

You know, like some that, like they're more in their own world and so they're not like as tuned into you as like maybe it would be ideal or healthy. Then there's like, well, they're not getting their emotional needs met in their romantic relationship, and so they put like their emotional needs onto you in a way that's not like ideal or whatever.

Like, there's so many different ways they can look. That's like when you're reading it, is it, like, some of it is like, this person will scream at you every time they're triggered, but some of it is like pretty relatable. Like you can see how a person ends up in that place. It's just ultimately not, um, Not the best thing for like, healthy development of a child into an adult, right?

[01:09:00] Zach: Yeah. So Olivia, we started this talking about your dreams. Do you feel like you wanna land the plane or.

[01:09:07] Olivia: Yeah. I mean, um, I am currently wrestling with having to set boundaries with people. That is where I'm at. Uh, becoming a parent being on the horizon as, brought this up for me as like an urgent thing. It's a thing I have not been comfortable doing. And, um, I. Yeah, I'm now like faced with doing that and I'm just realizing that like, I can't put that, like, I don't wanna put that on the, on the baby as like, uh, this is for the baby cuz it's not, it's for me. Um, and that should have been a good enough reason all along.

[01:09:53] Victor: it.

[01:09:54] Olivia: And like, maybe it took like having a baby to realize that like, uh, I am worthy of boundaries or whatever. But like, th this is just a realization that I'm having and it's like I now have to set it into practice, which is like a whole other thing.

And so it's just like on my mind, um, and like kind of causing me some stress because it does feel like time's a ticking and like, Um, I'm having to wrestle with a, with, um, incorporating something into the way I operate that is historically uncomfortable for me, um, because I don't want to make other people uncomfortable.

[01:10:38] Zach: 

Yeah, this baby is super lucky to have such a thoughtful, constantly growing pair of parents.

[01:10:47] Victor: It's gonna backfire hard.

This kid's 

[01:10:50] Zach: If we've learned anything, 

[01:10:51] Olivia: problems,

[01:10:54] Zach: somehow it's gonna get fucked up in an impossible predict. Third way.

[01:10:59] Olivia: right?

[01:10:59] Victor: Yep. Kid's gonna be showing up with a book, like, uh, grown up as a cyber child of emotionally immature cyborgs or whatever, and it's like, leave me alone. I'm in cryo sleep. And, um,

[01:11:15] Zach: I'm 

trying to, 

[01:11:16] Olivia: said that, um, If Victor and I are ever gonna be like out of touch bigots, it's gonna be like, no. Child of mine is gonna date a robot.

[01:11:27] Victor: Yeah.

[01:11:28] Olivia: I'm not okay with that.

[01:11:29] Victor: Mm-hmm.

They're not real people. Oh

[01:11:31] Olivia: Oh yeah, no, you'll be like kicking his girlfriend and he'll be like, 

dad, stop. She's 

not real

[01:11:38] Victor: Just ones and zeros.

[01:11:40] Zach: The Singularities Guide to dealing with Antit Transhumanist parents. be the book that your kid's buying from, uh, whatever replaces Amazon.

[01:11:52] Victor: We joke now, but that is gonna get us canceled in like 30 years.

[01:11:56] Zach: 

Yeah.

[01:11:57] Olivia: let's apologize in advance.

[01:11:58] Victor: yeah, we're gonna

[01:11:59] Olivia: we're sorry. We 

don't, we didn't mean it.

[01:12:02] Victor: We've, we've actually really grown and changed a lot since five seconds ago when

we were 

[01:12:06] Zach: like to preemptively apologize for everything I've said about furries, know they're gonna be a protected group of people in the future.

[01:12:13] Victor: I'm gonna do a, uh, 10 minute song about how I'm actually the victim. It's

[01:12:21] Olivia: topical.

[01:12:22] Zach: Wait, what? What are you referencing?

[01:12:24] Olivia: Uh, I don't know.

[01:12:26] Zach: Talking about the, the ukulele apology video?

[01:12:29] Victor: Yeah. Yes.

[01:12:30] Olivia: Yes.

[01:12:31] Zach: I don't know. What 

the fuck. 

[01:12:32] Victor: we are.

[01:12:33] Olivia: Oh my God. You should watch

it. 

[01:12:35] Victor: You 

[01:12:35] Zach: No, I don't know. I don't know 

who that was or what she's apologizing for. I 

just have 

[01:12:39] Victor: don't

you don't even need to know. Just watch it. You don't even need to know if you, the video itself is a crime.

[01:12:48] Zach: just artistically

[01:12:50] Victor: Yes. 

[01:12:51] Zach: she she belongs in art prison.

[01:12:54] Olivia: from a PR standpoint also. Yeah.

[01:12:56] Victor: Yeah. Be institutionalized for like, like a criminal failure to read the room.

[01:13:08] Zach: That should be a charge. That's hilarious.

[01:13:12] Olivia: Oh fuck. I'd be gone.

 Thank you for listening to The Jung and the Restless.

You can follow us on social media at the Jung and the Restless Pod and submit your dreams for interpretation to the Jung and the Restless Pod at gmail. And as we always say, no one, no one likes Hams. Ham for Easter. For Easter Dream team out. 

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