11. Nine-To-One Feminine

Shifting Perspectives, Part Two: Zach has been innovating a tasty valerian root drink, which may or may not be responsible…...

Shifting Perspectives, Part Two: Zach has been innovating a tasty valerian root drink, which may or may not be responsible for the beast of a vision quest that the Dream Team attempts to unpack in this episode. It’s long, winding, violent, upsettingly sexual, and ties back into the concept of perspective laid out in the previous installment of The Jung and the Restless. Despite his birth chart pegging him as functionally female, Zach worries about his own patterns of toxic masculinity.

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0:53 Intro

3:22 Zach's dream

About Dream Bible:

Dream Bible is a free online A to Z dream dictionary dedicated to helping people understand the meaning of their dreams. Unlike other dream interpretation websites or books we extensively research dream symbols by interviewing people about the events occurring in their lives at the time of their dreams.  Inspired by the work of Gillian Holloway Ph.D, we are using a database of over 350,000 dream reports to create the world's most practical dream dictionary based on the waking life experiences of regular people.


Dream Bible entries used in this episode:

Men: https://www.dreambible.com/search.php?q=men

Syringe: https://www.dreambible.com/search.php?q=syringe

Elderly: https://www.dreambible.com/search.php?q=elderly

Fantasy: https://www.dreambible.com/search.php?q=fantasy

Beasts: https://www.dreambible.com/search.php?q=beast

Basement: https://www.dreambible.com/search.php?q=basement

Sex: https://www.dreambible.com/search.php?q=sex

Arm: https://www.dreambible.com/search.php?q=arm

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Check out our website for episode transcripts: https://thejungandtherestlesspodcast.com/

Submit your dreams for interpretation to thejungandtherestlesspod@gmail.com

Episode Transcript

11. Nine-To-One Feminine

[00:00:00] Zach: Hey, sweet dreamers. It's your boy, Zach from the Young and the Restless. I just wanted to let you know that as a new podcast, we're still in that phase where Apple Podcast reviews have a, a weirdly disproportionately high impact on our success. So it would really mean the world to us. If you would, you know, give us five stars over there, and if you leave a dream in the review, we'll give you a shout out and take a stab at interpreting it on the show.

I mean, even if you hate us, we'll read your hate mail on air if you leave it in the body of a five star review and we'll still love you anyway on with the show.

Welcome to The Jung and the Restless. I'm Zach. I'm Olivia. And 

[00:00:55] Victor: I'm Victor. And this is the podcast where your hands are so large you can't pet your cat, and that's so sad. You're crying.

[00:01:24] Zach: I've been getting really into the joys of, uh, valerian route ever 

[00:01:29] Victor: long time ago. I was trying it out and yeah, it's 

[00:01:33] Zach: working. Yeah. And it gives me real weird dreams. Really? Uh, yeah. Cuz I get kind of like, I don't know, it makes me feel kind of like fevery. Oh. Like in a good way. Like it really knocks me out, if I remember right.


[00:01:47] Victor: I, sorry, let me confirm that. If I remember right, if you take Valerian route too regularly, it's associated with depression, so be careful. Oh really? Yeah. I think that's 

[00:01:58] Zach: why I stopped taking it. I think that was melatonin. 

[00:02:00] Victor: Oh, maybe that is melatonin. Maybe I'm getting '

[00:02:03] Zach: em switched. Yeah, because melatonin definitely like makes me super groggy.

Might be, yeah, 

[00:02:08] Victor: that might 

[00:02:09] Zach: be it. But I know that Arian route's not recommended for pregnant or nursing women 

[00:02:14] Victor: stays a vindicated that Valerian root is effective in treating anxiety and depression in menopausal women. Okay. . So, you know, make of that what you 

[00:02:24] Zach: will. I had an idea, I'm not gonna give away the recipe cause I still might try to like patent and sell this later on.

Mm-hmm. But I had an idea for like a alcohol nightcap substitute. Like instead of drinking booze before bed to like, you know, ease yourself to sleep. I made this like really strong valerian root concentrate and I added some like sugar and like citrus and uh, I won't give, it kind of tastes like, um, uh, what is it called?

Absent? Yeah. Mm-hmm. . It's got a real licoricey taste. Anyway, it's delicious and it, uh, knocks me out. And um, there was something 

[00:02:58] Victor: every time I, different recipe, totally different recipe, but there is a similar kind of product that Olivia was buying for a while. You're like going to sleep midnight. 

[00:03:07] Olivia: Oh yeah.

Neuro sleep. Yeah. Yeah. It has valerian in it, I think. Mm-hmm. 

[00:03:13] Zach: That shit knocks me out very, every time I take it I get real weird, like, like borderline lucid dreams. Um, so it was a valerian root dream I had the other day. Uh, okay. So the through line of the dream is, I guess I was traveling with a large group, kinda like a field trip.

Cause I remember the, one of the first scenes in the dream was, uh, like a, an outdoor parking lot. And they were like buses or vans or something. And uh, I remember I had a bunch of duffle bags, but I was stressing out cause I didn't have clothes. And the duffle, I had like duffle bags inside duffle bags. Um, and we had to hike to the vans.

And this is up in the mountains, like, um, it felt a lot like Estes. In Colorado, uh, just like scenic snowcap mountains and like up in the mountains, uh, there's all these like fanciful beasts, like cool giant giants. And no, nothing like from classic mythology like dragons, it was all like weirder than that.

Like things that reminded me of like, uh, like the flying dog thing from never ending story . Hmm. Is that a tra you or is a tra you the horse? Um, I don't remember. Hmm. Anyway, it was like that and at one point I remember like telling somebody in the group that I could make some of those creatures appear, manipulate them.

And I realized that like I was dreaming if I could do that. Um, and then I can't remember the logic behind it, but I didn't want to lose a dream because I had been kind of having like, I dunno, I took this valerian route obviously cause I wanted to get a good night's sleep. And uh, a lot of times when I lose a dream because I realize I'm.

Dreaming. That means I, I, I like, think of myself laying there in bed and I become hyperaware of the reality of that. And I kind of drift back into it. And I wake up and I didn't wanna wake up. So I was trying to like shed the idea that I was dreaming, like forget about it. And I remembered like one good way to do that is to like scare yourself.

Cuz if you become legitimately scared then you know, it absorbs you back into the reality of the dream, you know? So I deliberately like, tried to fly, but I did it with my ass. Pointed up, , like I laid down, I laid down on the, um, on the gravel of the parking lot and like, did like a yoga pose, you know, in near and tried to fly vertically into the air like that.

Cause I thought it would be scarier ass first. Yeah. . And I also, I made it become nighttime and then I guess I got so like, freaked out by it that I like compartmentalized it back into a third person thing. So then it became the scene that I was in where I'm flying in this parking lot. At night in the mountains became a screen on a video game, and I was sitting on a couch with my ex watching it.

This dream takes lots of turns like that. Like it just keeps, um, shifting perspective. Hmm. Anyway, so I'm sitting next to this ex, we'll call her Liz. Um, and I'm actually even kind of explaining to her what's going on on the screen about like, why, like I'm explaining the reasoning behind her of why I wanted to fly like that.

It's like I wanted to get scared so I could stay in the dream. And she's like super engaged and interested and, and I, and I'm telling her that, like, I remember saying something about like, I get scared of flying even in video games, which is what we were like apparently watching, we weren't playing the video games , it was just on, it was on the screen.

Um, but she seemed like really amused by this. Um, but then at, at, at a certain point she told me there was this old man in her basement. They kept coming up and trying to kill her. Oh. And uh, this like really creepy old, like gray beard man. And, uh, so I accompany here to the basement door and sure enough he's standing at the top of the stairs.

Uh, and I'm like, I'm in like problem solving mode. Cause I just figured out this whole like, lucid dreaming problem. And I'm like, oh, you just push him. And she's like, what? I just walk up and I just shove him on the chest down the stairs, , and he tumbles backward down the stairs. And like, I'm like 90% sure his neck is broken.

So I'm like, there you go, . And, and I remember like her mind being blown, like I never thought to just push him. And I was like, yeah, not that tough. Problem solved. And then , oh God, I'm only like halfway through this . There's like, we're back with the, like the group that's traveling together, like the field.

And we have to go to sleep in this big auditorium, uh, like it's a hurricane or something, you know, and, uh, I'm sleeping on a, on a sleeping bag or like a mat or something. A cot next to a friend of mine from high school that I haven't seen since high school, but he's just like antagonizing me and like I'm dishing it back and it's just escalating.

It's like, starts with little stuff. Like, he like bites me on the shoulder and he rips. I'm wearing a denim jacket, like my favorite denim jacket. And, and he rips the seam on the shoulder to where there's like cotton showing through. And I get real mad about that, but eventually it escalates to the point where I kind of snap and I just like twist his, like arm around.

And he, I think he's just doing like a soccer flop, you know, like acting like a hurts way more than it does. Mm-hmm. . And I'm like, ah, whatever dude. And I go, I'm like so agitated with him that I just go to sleep on the other side of the auditorium. And he comes over like sobbing to show me what I did. And like his arm is broken and the, you know, there's two bones in the forearm.

They're like, yeah. One of them is, is sticking through the skin and the other one's twisted around. So his hand is like on backwards. Ooh. And uh, he needs my help to like reset it. So I like, I'm like profusely apologizing and I'm like twisting the, I wish I knew the names of Bones. Radio twisting. Yeah.

Twisting the one that's like still unbroken back around so that the two ends of the broken one can meet and like, um, like resetting it and stuff. And I'm doing this like we're both on our knees and I'm behind him and we're both naked and like after the bones reset, like we're both crying and I'm like holding him and we start having sex

And, but it was like a weirdly beautiful image. It felt like a Renaissance painting, you know? It didn't feel very like . It didn't feel very sexual. Cause it was still like bloody and like, it felt like really like hyper masculine. Like Greek. We were reading 

[00:09:21] Olivia: about statuesque thing, sex and the dream bible recently.

It's like largely not sexual a lot of the time. Is that it's just like about something you're enjoying. 

[00:09:32] Zach: Yeah. Which is weird. Well, we'll get into it, obviously. Yeah. Um, and after this whole tableau, this whole thing, um, I end up going up to the roof of wherever we are and it feels like a, it's like a rooftop bar again.

It feels like Estes Park like. We're in the mountains and there's, you know, snow spotted evergreens everywhere. And so it feels like a, a rooftop like tiki bar, but it's winter, so like everything's coated in snow and closed down. And I'm completely alone up there, except from the shadows Behind the tiki bar comes the old man.

Oh, and he's ho and, and he's holding a syringe. Oh, Jesus. And he, and he comes too quickly. And I'm like, shit, there's no stairs around to push 'em off or to push 'em down. . But, but there's a ledge and, and we're up on like, I don't know, like the 20th floor some, you know, there's this whole power struggle. And, uh, I, I eventually like get him to the edge, but it's not like, it's not like the clean, like just shove him down the stairs.

Like one motion thing. It's like this drawn out struggle, right? Like pushes torso over the edge and then like pin him down and like grab an ankle. And then finally, you know, flip him over using the leverage of the railing. Uh, and he tumbles to his death. But I realize that the syringe is sticking outta my neck and that he's gotten me mm-hmm.

And the last thing I remember is looking out at the mountains and there's no more fanciful beasts. It's just like desolate and quiet. Mm-hmm. and I, and I don't know what's in the syringe and I don't know if I'm gonna live or not. Is that, 

[00:11:06] Olivia: That's a fucking journey. 

[00:11:08] Victor: Yeah. God damn. Yeah. 

[00:11:10] Zach: I feel like, um, that was a long one.

There were acts. Yeah. , I feel, and each time I moved into a new part, I was like, do I really need to like it? It did come back around, so I was like, yeah, it's all part of the same thing. 

[00:11:21] Olivia: I have a place where I think I, I think we might wanna start. Um, and because this is so, like in depth, it doesn't, I don't know that we can like start without the dream Bible, um, to give us a place.

[00:11:34] Zach: But I think I was thinking, yeah, that might be the more, most coherent way to go about it is make a list of like pertinent imagery at the Dream Bible would have. Yeah. So I 

[00:11:42] Olivia: was taking, I was taking notes, but I think that that old man is important because men, um, Represent aspects of yourself or areas of your life that are assertive, aggressive, rational, practical or insensitive.

And so like mm-hmm. , um, there's nothing for old men, but so maybe we look up old and apply that to him cuz he's a recurring the 

[00:12:04] Zach: character there. Yeah. And if it has to do with like, aspects of yourself, I, I assume, especially if you are a man, well, maybe not even if, I mean anima animus, I guess we all have both.

Um, maybe then just advanced age indicates like, uh, what, what you. Think of your future self or maybe your tr your, your 

[00:12:23] Olivia: trajectory. Yeah, I'll, I'll look 

[00:12:24] Zach: it up real quick. For some reason I also thought clothes were important cuz I was stressed out about the duffle bags just being full of other duffle bags.

And then what really set me off about, um, my friend there was, was him like tearing my jacket. Mm-hmm. elderly 

[00:12:39] Olivia: to dream of elderly people represents, have, uh, to dream of elderly people, represents experience or the wisdom to know better. Having been there and done that, re-experiencing a similar situation.

Sound advice coming from experience. It may also reflect boredom with something you know too well. Old women may reflect experience with supporting others or being screwed over old men. Hmm. May reflect experience asserting yourself or embarrassing others. 

[00:13:11] Zach: Interesting. So they do have an old man entry.


[00:13:13] Olivia: That's how it's under elderly. It's interesting too, cuz he was fucking aggressive as fuck. . 

[00:13:19] Zach: Yeah. But it's weird that he was haunting my ex in a kind of passive, in the shadows way. And then once I fronted him, then he, 

[00:13:27] Olivia: so, and also old men or men represents aspects of yourself. So like an older, wiser, aggressive version of yourself is haunting your ex, I don't know.

[00:13:40] Victor: And then under the old entry, old objects or people in a dream may also reflect your feelings about wiser choices or ideas. Negatively, it may reflect success or winning that it is achieved through more boring, experienced methods or choices. So like succeeding by taking like a, like a trite and true route that you find uninteresting or whatever.

[00:14:05] Olivia: Hmm. That's interesting. That, that's like the negative interpretation 

[00:14:11] Victor: that makes sense to me. It's like, oh yeah, I could, um, I could do this thing and I would make money doing it. Yeah. But that would be my life. Yeah. I guess so. 

[00:14:20] Zach: Um, that's the negative of, of old 

[00:14:23] Victor: objects or people in the old entry. 

[00:14:26] Zach: Mm. 

[00:14:28] Olivia: Um, I also looked up fantasy, uh, let's see, to dream of a fan because of the fantasy character like the creatures.

And they were there at the very beginning and then they were gone at the end. I 

[00:14:42] Victor: think this is a JK Rowling dream. that fantastic feast 

[00:14:46] Olivia: to dream of. A fantasy represents feelings of enjoying, escaping from reality, a reflection of being in a highly imaginative state in waking life, thinking that is unrealistic sexual fantasies.

Imagining what is possible or achievable. Um, Uh, negatively dreaming of a fantasy may represent a tendency towards feeling disconnected from reality, escapism, playing with something that isn't real and never thinking it matters. Difficulty coming back to reality after being isolated. Um, awareness of yourself becoming realistic after not being realistic.

Unrealistic thoughts about sexual attraction to the opposite sex. 

[00:15:28] Victor: So you've got the, the beast there at the beginning of the dream and they're fun and you're kind of interacting with them, and you almost go off the lucid path of like controlling the beasts, right? And playing with them like they're toys or something like that.

Am I getting that 

[00:15:45] Olivia: right? That really does feel right with this 

[00:15:48] Victor: fantasy entry. And then by the end of the dream, the beasts are gone and it's like a desolate landscape that you're dealing with. So it, it sounds like if the dreams are representative or, or if the beasts are representative of. , like fan, like fanciful ideas or whimsy, you know, it's like maybe your arc from start to finish is like, you start in like a more, um, you know, imaginative place and like reality is caught up with you by the end of the dream.

I'm not sure really how to fill in the middle there, but that's maybe your start to finish place 

[00:16:22] Zach: that, that parallels the, um, arc with the old man too. Cause that's, that the feeling of him coming out of the shadows with the syringe was definitely like a, I fucked myself on this one feeling like mm-hmm.

If I hadn't pushed him down the stairs, he wouldn't be seeking. 

[00:16:35] Olivia: Mm-hmm. It was like a revenge thing. Okay, 

[00:16:38] Zach: gotcha. Yeah. Like he was apparently always in the basement at, at my ex's place. Like, she was complaining about him lurking, but he never like, was aggressive to her until I, and I thought I was like helping her out.

I was like, oh, lemme just kill him for you, . And then, uh, and then he followed me. 

[00:16:56] Olivia: So there is a dream Bible entry for a syringe to dream of. A syringe represents influence or emotional immunizing, a person or situation that has the power to influence your choices, beliefs, or feelings, positive or responsible.

Changes that bring up bring out positive change changes made that immunize you from problems, blame or anxiety negatively. A syringe may reflect unwanted influences, responsible or positive changes that scare you. Feelings about parents or authority figures forcing change on you. Alternatively, a syringe may negatively reflect bad influences or exploiting people's weaknesses to change their minds.

Actions taken to immunize yourself from blame or responsibility. 

[00:17:48] Zach: It's a lot in there, but it does seem 

[00:17:50] Olivia: significant. There's still more actually. Oh, wow. Um, to dream of syringe injections that don't work may reflect ineffective attempts to change your life. Um, 

[00:17:59] Zach: scary thing was I didn't know what was in it or if it would work.

Mm-hmm. To be 

[00:18:02] Olivia: injected with a s syringe represents a person or situation that is influencing, influencing your choices, beliefs, or feelings. Feelings that a change being made reverses or alters your thinking style, feelings spared from difficulties, or that your life has been made easier in some ways.

Feeling immunized from your troubles to dream of being okay. Wait. Do you remember what the fluid looked like? Was it clear? 

[00:18:28] Zach: No, it was like a blueish. Greenish, like Oh, okay. Is that in there? And the trees kind of color? 

[00:18:33] Olivia: Um, hang on, let's see. , 

[00:18:35] Victor: we could also separately 

[00:18:37] Olivia: look at the colors. Yeah, I would, I would do that.

Um, cuz it 

[00:18:39] Victor: says blue is positive stuff, right? We were just talking about 

[00:18:43] Olivia: that. Oh yeah. So it, there's only something in here with a clear 

[00:18:47] Zach: fluid, but I remember having the feeling that it was like, like engine coolant. Like it wasn't Okay. Like I had the feeling it was, um, like not medicine, . No. Yeah. Like he was trying to do something bad.

Yeah. Well, so, okay. He 

[00:19:00] Olivia: was trying to negatively influence you. 

[00:19:02] Victor: So just to kind, kind of piece this stuff back together. You've got old, an old man, elderly people represent, uh, experience or wisdom that knows better having been there, done that like, so, so you know, wisdom, experience. Old men may reflect, um, experience asserting yourself or embarrassing others.

I'm not sure that that plays in here. Um, and then, um, the, the elderly or Yeah, old people negatively reflect success or winning that's achieved through more boring experiences or methods. So it sounds like maybe, maybe the old man could reflect if, if we take the seed of like the beasts being impracticality or like, you know, fantasy or imagination or like whatever at the beginning, and then you're hit with like the absence of that, which is like cold practicality at the end, the old man might be like someone trying to tell you they know better.

And that the thing at the end of the dream is like all there ever should have been or ever was. And so then the syringe is like those ideas being forced upon you or like that perspective being, you know, Um, yeah, 

[00:20:17] Zach: yeah. Can we, 

[00:20:19] Olivia: so, um, something about like, so men are supposed supposedly representative of an aspect of yourself that is assertive or, um, dominant or something.

But, so like if we take that into consideration, that's perhaps a version, an aspect of yourself that is, that is older and wiser, or that knows better, that is assertive and trying to influence you. 

[00:20:50] Victor: So it might be like, I don't know if I'm just constructing meaning, but it's possible there's like some anxiety of like knowing, knowing in your practical head that, you know, a certain path or certain choice or whatever might be better in the long term.

And something in you like fighting against 

[00:21:11] Zach: that. Yeah, and it's, well, it's interesting in the context of that x. Too. Mm-hmm. , that particular person. Um, because I, it was a pretty short relationship, but it's probably the one I'm most embarrassed about. Mm-hmm. Like, looking back on it, I just am not proud at all of the way I handled it.

Sure. And like, I thought she was super cool and like really valued her opinion. And so, like in retrospect, they just, that one in particular makes me cringe more than any other. And like, I just, at the time, this was years ago, I had some like kind of toxic relationship patterns that, um, she really highlighted because she was probably the first person I dated that, um, was really mature and like, you know, not that everyone I dated before that wasn't mature, but she was like really specifically mature and privy to, in this way, privy to, um, these types of things.

Hmm. Um, like I think she had just dealt with more bullshit and was more done with it. And, and people before her were, um, You know, willing to fix me or whatever, you know what I mean? Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm. . Uh, but it was so short cuz she was like, Nope, you need to deal with this before we can be a thing. And um, so it's interesting that like I would push this old man down her stairs and like try to rid her of him and now he's following me.

So like, the way I, the feeling I'm starting to get, like talking about this is that maybe I'm processing, like I'm done being, I mean, I haven't seen her in years, but like, I was embarrassed about these parts of me that like look bad in front of her. Mm-hmm. and now I. It's not her problem anymore. Hmm. Hmm.

You know what I mean? That's 

[00:22:48] Victor: interesting. That's very interesting. Yeah. I, 

[00:22:50] Olivia: I also just had another thought of like, she brought to your attention the older, wiser version of you that maybe is gonna make smarter choices or whatever. And you killed them and you put, you were like, just push him down the stairs.

Yeah. And 

[00:23:07] Victor: put him back in the basement where he belongs back 

[00:23:09] Zach: in my subconscious. And he seems so evil, right? That he seems so menacing. Well, 

[00:23:13] Olivia: cuz maybe it's like the work you have to do to get to there is inti is like, you know, it's a lot and intimidating or whatever. Um, or, but for whatever reason it was like you didn't want to get to that and then, oh shit.

[00:23:28] Zach: And it is like, actually the basement, I'm pushing the basement. Basement. You 

[00:23:31] Olivia: pushed him into the basement, you're subconscious, and then here's the. Something I heard in therapy is that you can't hold a beach ball underwater forever, or whatever. You, you know, you push him down the stairs and you're like, problem solved.

Uh, and then, you know, inevitably he comes back for you and is trying to influence you with his, uh, older and wiser injections. But it's still, it's interesting that it's still like frightening and dangerous seeming at that point. 

[00:24:06] Zach: Yeah. Yeah. 

[00:24:07] Victor: I It might be the, sorry, go ahead. 

[00:24:09] Zach: You're right. That the, um, the, uh, presence and then absence of the, like, I, I looked at Beast on the dream Bible cuz um, I actually used that word in the dream.

Mm-hmm. and I think it, like, it parallels, um, the fantasy one, but. Short and specific is to dream of beast represents a negative aspect of your life that seems totally out of control problem. You have a lot of difficulty taming or getting under control. So like kinda the way we colloquially use the word demonn, you know?

Mm, mm-hmm. . Um, so there, in addition to just being like, at the beginning, I'm living in like a quote unquote fantasy world, and at the end it's more realistic. It could also be a reference to Yeah. Demons or bad habits that aren't in control, that are like, maybe the desolation is a good thing. Yeah. 

[00:24:56] Victor: Or, or like you might be, let's say the, the, the beasts are, um, unhealthy on some level.

Ultimately you're still enjoying them and still appreciating their presence and, um, to lose them. You, uh, may feel desolate, right? There's a reason you still hold onto those things and it's because you're getting something out of them, right? And so like, if the old man represents maybe a version of yourself, that's put those things behind you.

The reason why the old man is scary is because the hillside without the fantastical creatures is desolate. Just it feels empty. Mm-hmm. , if they're not there, what is there? 

[00:25:41] Zach: Nothing. Right? Which is inter, because as like a hopeless, romantic, artsy type like I do, or historically have had a tendency to romanticize and like glorify, like toxic behavior and toxic traits, which Liz was very not about.

Right. Um, 

[00:25:58] Victor: so yeah, she might be like, I think these themes, these, these like abstract concepts are the big picture of maybe what's going on in the stream. And then Liz, it sounds like, um, She might be like the key to what specifically? You're 

[00:26:16] Zach: like, it's dwelling, like a turning point. Mm-hmm. , 

[00:26:18] Victor: or like if there were some, if there were specific things that were, that came up in that relationship or that you, you said you feel like the most cringe when you think back on that relationship of all of them.

Whatever that cringing is. Whatever that's based in, that could be kind of the key, the like core of the dream as you trying. Work out, whatever that is. 

[00:26:43] Zach: Yeah. 

[00:26:45] Olivia: J I know that we like probably all already know what a basement is, but like the in the entry is like what it is. Yeah. Well the entry is pretty interesting in relation to what we're just talking about now.

So to dream of a basement represents your deepest, darkest thoughts, emotions, and memories. A basement points to problems that you don't wanna deal with, or issues that may be very uncomfortable thinking about a situation or memory that is so negative you can't forget it or think about anything else.

Alternatively, a basement may reflect the worsening of a problem or trouble that you are overwhelmed by. A basement is a sign that you may have unresolved issues or problems that the ego may not allow you to explore without assistance. Oh, that sounds like . Problems the ego may not allow you to explore without assistance.

Is this dream Bible telling you to get a therapist? ? 

[00:27:39] Zach: Probably. I, I feel the, um, impulse to like, be specific cuz I, I'm, I'm talking like vaguely about, you know, toxic behaviors and relationship patterns and I actually don't want the listener to like, fill in the blank there and like make up things about me.

Okay. Uh, cuz it is very common, like young dude stuff. Mm-hmm. is just like jealousy, possessiveness, right. Um, that kind of stuff that he kind of like, he 

[00:28:04] Olivia: didn't kick her dog is what he's trying to say. Yeah. . 

[00:28:07] Zach: Yeah. It wasn't anything like beyond the pale, just, but it's like is, it's embarrassing when you become an older, mature, more mature man and.

And then less hormonal , you know? Um, but yeah, yeah, jealousy possess. I was drinking a lot at the time, like kind of like toxic toxically masculine traits, which 

[00:28:27] Olivia: is interesting because of the old man, like the Yeah, that's what I was, was getting to, represents like the cl the classic, um, overly masculine assertiveness.

Like, but like as an aspect of yourself, which, um, Zach, you are like, not. In my opinion, like an overly like masculine, assertive person. You know, I feel like you have like, like a, a nice feminine energy. And I mean that in the best way possible. 

[00:28:54] Zach: I know what you mean, but still comes off Funny. 

[00:28:59] Olivia: Uh, side note, when I did, um, I looked up your birth chart and there was like this whole, there's this thing at the bottom where it's like how many like feminine aspects to masculine aspects you have.

And like I had like, like four masculine, six feminine victor. You had like five and five and then that was 50 50. Zach, you had, boy, you had nine feminine and one masculine. 

[00:29:23] Zach: Oh shit. I don't mean like, oh shit, that's bad. I mean, like, oh, shit. That's 

[00:29:27] Olivia: interesting. Yeah, no, it was interesting. But like, it's interesting that, that, that that's like, 

[00:29:32] Zach: but I still grew up a man and was, uh, you know, at a, at an earlier time, at a younger age, um, had a, you know, was carrying around a lot of that.

[00:29:41] Olivia: Right. And that's a product of bullshit. Yeah, exactly. That's a product of like the society that we live in. And, um, it's like, it's inescapable in a lot of ways, 

[00:29:51] Victor: right? Yeah. And nobody rolls into adulthood, like a perfectly well adjusted person that doesn't have anything they need to sort through. Like we've all, we've all like had to grapple with our own stuff.

Yeah. And it's a continuous process, right? Like all of us are still working on stuff, so. 

[00:30:07] Zach: Yeah. Um, but yeah, I don't, I think the like toxic masculinity thing is like coming together for me with the old man, but you know, also the. The, the, the beasts slash demons. I mean, they didn't feel like demons, they felt like fun beasts.

But again, that's like, I'm also reading Naked Lunch right now. Oh. And like Burrows is like the king of like, romanticizing this kind of genre of like bad behavior. Yeah. Mm-hmm. , 

[00:30:34] Victor: there's a couple dream topics we haven't, there are a couple things that came up that we haven't touched on yet. Yeah. So can you refresh my memory?

There was like, after the first old man experience, there was a friend. Then you get friend dropped back into the, you said clothes were important and there was a friend that broke his arm. You tried to help him repair it, and then you had sex. I broke his arm. You broke his arm. And then, uh, you were trying to help him, and then that turned into you two.

[00:31:00] Zach: Yeah. It was actually a good transition because I think I, I feel like it ties into the overly aggressive masculine thing. I mean, first of all, there's, you know, homosexual intercourse. Mm-hmm. , um, that's very masculine. And then, uh, Yeah, the, the, there's a lot of violence in this stream and, and in this part it happened to be like, it was like little growing violences, like slapping and biting that eventually escalated to me breaking his arm.

I didn't mean to, I was trying to like do a, like an older brother kind of like arm bar, like wrestling move thing. Like just twist his arm. I didn't realize it was broken until he came like over to me to show me what I had done is this and then, oh, sorry. No, what were you gonna say? 

[00:31:42] Olivia: I was gonna ask what your relationship with this person is in real life.

Like what? Uh, cuz I feel like that'll give, inform us a little 

[00:31:49] Zach: more. Yeah. It's weird that I would, that it would be him. Cuz I, I haven't seen him since high school. We were just, we were buddies in high school. Okay. And it was a little bit of an antagonistic relationship. Like we, we both had a sense of humor that lends itself to like, tormenting each other.

We would play pranks on each other. And, um, is this the 

[00:32:06] Olivia: guy that you had a joke about? Um, pissing during sex ? 

[00:32:10] Victor: Yeah, that's just what I was wondering. What there was guy, you told us a story about a guy who, like you, would make fun of him for something all the time, and he would make fun of you being like a, like a neph file or something.

And then, then he came to you after you and was like, so I gotta tell you the thing you've been teasing me about all these years, I'm really into that. Like, I'm actually, that's actually my kink. And then you had to be like, okay, so just so you know, I, I'm not really into fucking dead bodies. , 

[00:32:37] Zach: no different, different friend, but, uh, same group of friends.

Okay, gotcha. What did you 

[00:32:42] Victor: say about clothes? You were saying something about clothes being important. 

[00:32:45] Zach: It just seemed like a thing throughout the whole dream. Like I was stressed at the beginning of this field trip or whatever was, that's what it had the energy of a field trip. I was stressed about not having clothes or like packing.

I remember there at one point my duffel bag just had another duffle bag in it, and I was, but anyway, yeah, and then like in, in this scene where we're in the like gymnasium to sleep, he like bit the shoulder of, of my jacket and like ripped it. And I was like, that was the inciting incident for me breaking his fucking arm.

Hmm. I don't know if clothes are actually important. It just like maybe a, what is like the main arbitrary 

[00:33:19] Olivia: theme? Like what's like the overall thing, like the first thing in there about clothes? 

[00:33:24] Victor: Um, The first thing about clothes is to dream of clothing represents the personality. Consider the style, value, and color of the clothing for additional meaning.

But further down the, uh, entry to dream of being unable to find your clothes for an important occasion may represent feelings of being unable to meet the obligations, demands, or expectations of 

[00:33:47] Olivia: others. That's super interesting and like that kind Yeah, that feels relevant. That kind of plays into like, if it represents your personality, it's like how you're, how you're perceived, how other people see you.

So like not being able to meet their expectations 

[00:34:01] Zach: or Then it's interesting that this would end in a sex scene cuz that dis. Very distinctly involved in having no clothes. Hmm. Uh, and, and that, that part of it, by the way, was probably the most, like, that's the part that I was thinking about on the way to work.

That was the most like, complicated part emotionally, the, the sex part of the dream. Yeah. Me breaking his arm, having to fix it. Like the, so the part where I'm like resetting his bone was really graphic. There's also 

[00:34:27] Olivia: like, so in the arm entry, like there isn't a broken arm entry, which we could, we could probably like make one.

Uh, you know, it's pretty breaking somebody's, um, ability to function. Like your arms represent function, reach, or what's possible. 

[00:34:43] Victor: Yeah. Well, so I have, let me read two things too. Uh oh, sorry. Did you wanna go? 

[00:34:47] Olivia: Oh, well I was gonna, If you wanna read it here, the, there's the entry about people who self-harm is kind of interesting in relation to this.

It's not spot on, but it's like, it's interesting that you broke your friend's arm and it says, people who self-harm to their arms may see imagery in dreams of damage being done to their arms by safe or trusted friends, 

[00:35:09] Zach: people who self-harm. Yeah. 

[00:35:11] Victor: So if you are someone that self-harms, you might dream of friends.

[00:35:16] Zach: No, I've, I never have. Well, 

[00:35:17] Olivia: it was, it was your friend's arm who, so what I'm saying here is that your friend is in the position, uh, that like some people might dream from about self-harm. 

[00:35:28] Zach: My first, yeah. My first instinct is like, tie it into the, the old man arc with the, um, with the overly aggressive like hyper-masculine traits and relationships.

This like, first of all, this like extreme reaction to like a mild annoyance where I like accidentally go too far and like really cause bodily harm to somebody. Is is hyper aggressive. And then in the aftermath of that, I'm like profusely, remorseful. And uh, I feel like that morphing into like a sex scene is, is very layered and hard to summarize.


[00:36:02] Victor: I'm gonna read a couple relevant entries cuz I think that that might help. Um, okay. Arms. To dream of an arm represents function, reach, or what's possible? Arms reflect status, talents, grasp, or resources that are available to you or some aspect of yourself to dream of. Broken bones in a person's body represents changes to fundamental aspects of your personality and to who you are.

And then to dream of having sex with a person who has something wrong with them may represent your enjoyment of being needed. You may also be enjoying the role of being more desirable, important, or interesting 

[00:36:41] Zach: than someone else. Yeah. I wonder if topping versus bottoming means anything. . 

[00:36:45] Victor: Yeah. Let me scan this for.

Were you, were, were you topping or bottoming? 

[00:36:52] Zach: I was topping. Okay. Because it started, like, I was, I was resetting. I was like, like that scene from Ghost, the pottery scene, , you know, like reaching around him to reset the bones. So I'm like, behind him, like 10, 

[00:37:04] Olivia: the old reach around. All 

[00:37:05] Zach: right. But yeah, but it's like, it's really tender and like upsetting, like there's blood everywhere and I'm like having a twist of bone back into place.

Yeah. And then that turns into me just like holding him there to like comfort him. Cause he's like sobbing. It's like really like kind of a fucked up scene. Yeah. And, and then that's when I realized that we're naked and I'm inside of him . 

[00:37:28] Victor: So we've got, 

[00:37:30] Zach: but again, it was like kind of beautiful. Yeah. Like, not like, no, no, I hear you.

Not super sexual. I didn't feel turned on. Like per se. 

[00:37:37] Olivia: I just have a vivid like imagination. I'm . I'm just like picturing this and it's just kind of funny. 

[00:37:44] Victor: So we've got clothing or the, like, the un inability to find clothing representing maybe a feeling of inadequacy. We've got arms representing, um, capability, right?

Um, your, your, you, um, yeah, status, talents, grasp, resources available to you, function, reach. So arms are like power, right? And then you've got the broken bone is fundamental change to who you are, which I think, um, maybe resonates with what we've been talking about with the old man, right? Of like the old man and, and like the going from beasts to desolation, right?

That represents maybe. , um, a fear of a fundamental change to who you are, right? Going from the, the you, you are to a version of yourself that's maybe more responsible or whatever, but is also not someone that you feel you would like or like being right? Um, and so that broken arm, that broken bone, um, is the change.

The clothes are feelings of inadequacy and then the arm is power, right? Mm-hmm. . So maybe on some level it's, uh, this all feels like it connects to the idea of you have to fundamentally change yourself to go from. To, to resolve your, like a feeling of inadequacy. Like to like there's a way in which I don't feel I have pow enough power or strength or whatever I need to like an ambition thing.

And but to get there you have to fundamentally change in a way that you feel would be 

[00:39:27] Zach: desolation. Yeah. And the feeling I'm getting from this, from talking about this dream is that that fundamental change maybe has to do with like, making amends for stuff. Mm-hmm. Um, cuz this between Liz and this friend, like it seems to have a lot to do with like, stuff I've maybe inflicted or feel like I have.

[00:39:47] Olivia: Do you have like beef with this friend? 

[00:39:51] Zach: No, not at all. Okay. 

[00:39:53] Victor: But breaking the arm, uh, in the dream, it's like it's new beef. I took it too far. Right? Yeah. Like we were doing a tit for tat thing and then I crossed a line and now I'm trying to make it up to this guy. 

[00:40:06] Zach: Yeah. Yeah. Cuz I was like, So torn up, extremely remorseful about what I did on accident there.

Mm-hmm. , which seems very parallel to the, the way I acted around Liz. It says, in 

[00:40:16] Victor: sex entry, whatever thoughts, feelings, or memories that stand out the most to you about the person you have sex with, represents what you were experiencing more of in your life. Hmm. So if this guy, um, sounds like you haven't talked in a long time, but if you, like, if you could like, sum up your feelings about this person, 

[00:40:35] Zach: what would you say?

I don't know. I haven't seen him in so long. Hmm. Uh, it's, 

[00:40:39] Olivia: I mean, it's probably based on your feelings about him in high school. Like 

[00:40:44] Zach: Yeah. Or what those feelings represent overall. Yeah. 

[00:40:47] Victor: Right. Like, was this an easy, easy friendship? Was this a complicated friendship? Was this someone you 

[00:40:52] Zach: like? Yeah. It seemed pretty straightforward, but I have wondered in the past, like if, how, how much of like his retaliation in our little, like prank wars did come from a place of like genuine agitation and like, I do wonder if I ever.

Like took it too far. Like, I thought I was just having fun and he was actually like, felt bullied by me. Hmm. 

[00:41:13] Victor: Well that, that's the dream, isn't it? Right. Or like that's that part of that tit forte, you breaking his arm as you're taking things too far, right? So it's like, yeah. Yeah. I mean, that seems like kind of a perfect one-to-one connect connection between that feeling that you have of like, was I ever really being an asshole to this guy?

Like, did he come away from that feeling negatively about me and, and your dream? 

[00:41:37] Olivia: It's like, yeah. And what's interesting is you didn't like know until like after the fact. Like he came back to you and was like, oh, you broke, you actually broke my arm when you did that. That thing you did a while ago. Right?

Broke my arm. Like, and so it's like, it's almost like you're imagining. like, 


[00:41:56] Zach: And he needed, he needed me to help him reset it like this. This was an auditorium full of people. Oh, there's also 

[00:42:02] Olivia: sex in a public place. Oh, I didn't realize you were in an auditorium full of people . 

[00:42:06] Zach: Yeah, they were all asleep though,

Um, but it did, it did, it did feel like, especially vulnerable to be That's 

[00:42:12] Olivia: so funny that they're all asleep. Wait, was this like a, the field trip still? 

[00:42:16] Zach: Yeah. Oh, okay. It felt, it felt like we were all sleep, sleeping in an, uh, auditorium or a gymnasium like you would during a hurricane. Gotcha. That's 

[00:42:24] Olivia: right.

[00:42:25] Victor: So to dream of having sex with someone in public may represent your private life being made public or other people speculating about your life. It may also reflect attention. You were attracting yourself with your personal interests or achievements, which I, you know, speaks to. Um, you're concerned about how this guy is perceiving you.

You have an anxiety about, um, you know, how you behaved in that relationship with, with your ex. Right? And that's about people's perception of you. And so like, public sex having to do with like, consciousness of being perceived maybe plays into like, you know, part of this for you is thinking about how other people see you.

[00:43:05] Zach: Yeah. Cause that's the last part of like a genuine metamorphosis, right? Is the, like if you, if you change for the better completely within a vacuum, I guess good for you. But like it doesn't really feel validated necessarily. Yeah. Especially if you feel like you have something to make up for. Yeah, no. At some point we're gonna do like a whole episode on like Sex Dreams, cuz I feel like there's a lot, may, maybe not, maybe it's like as simple as Poop Dreams turned out to be.

I think 

[00:43:34] Olivia: it, I think it's a long injury. I think it, but you're right, you're, it is long and it just depends on all of the other context. But 

[00:43:40] Zach: it is interesting cuz like I've, I didn't wanna make like a joke out of the gay sex thing, um, or like come off as like resistant to the idea that it might be about repression or something.

Hmm. Because first of all, I am like, I don't think anyone's like perfectly straight, but I don't feel repressed in that way. Like I, I do, you know, maybe like whatever percent bisexual, but I, I don't have a hard time accepting that. Mm-hmm. , I'm totally, um, I'm nine to one feminine guys. like, I, I just, I don't feel, I, I think when a sexuality in a dream comes up, it's not the sexually sexuality you identify, right?

Yes. The first thing you might reach for is like repression or like something like a true desire coming out. But like, I, I 

[00:44:26] Olivia: under I totally hear you because like, and I've had sex dreams before where it's like, I can tell, like if I tell you that I had a sex dream about this, like that's gonna come off like a certain way.

But it, sex dreams just usually are not about, they're, they don't feel like they're about sex, you know? They're not about no 

[00:44:45] Zach: that. So sometimes like, like when, like during puberty, when I had like a nocturnal emission, I think that was just me having an orgasm in my sleep and my brain. Putting some fun imagery to it.

Mm-hmm. , but like yeah. An adulthood. I feel like sex strangers are almost never about sex. Yeah. 

[00:45:02] Olivia: Um, but especially this one, this does not seem like it's about sex at all. 

[00:45:06] Zach: It wasn't, yeah. It wasn't very sexy. We're cry. We're both crying. And he's being, that's why dating 

[00:45:10] Olivia: all of he's laughing, by the way, is like, just picturing you , like doing this very unsexy, like kind of horrifyingly, gory, like resetting of this broken bones and then being like, oh wait, we're fucking

[00:45:21] Zach: Yeah. And if it were about me wanting to have gay sex with this friend, I would, I would just say that I wouldn't be like, ashamed of it. Yeah. So there 

[00:45:29] Olivia: is an entry on that, isn't there? Uh, yeah. That's not 

[00:45:32] Victor: relevant. I, I'm not seeing a lot that's relevant. It's getting into like, Hmm. A little bit problematic here.

Dream Bible . 

[00:45:42] Zach: Dream means you're a homo. 

[00:45:43] Victor: Should I, should I read the gay se uh, parenthetically Gay sex Entry on the Dream Bible? Should we get into that? 

[00:45:51] Olivia: I mean, do, we can cut it out if, if we want, but we don't need to. Up to you, Zach. Um, if it feels like it wasn't about the fact that you're, you were the same, it didn't feel gendered.

Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Then let's, let's skip it. 

[00:46:05] Zach: I do have like an example of a, an old sex dream. Hmm. Real quick. Um, cause I, I feel like it's a good example of what sex dreams are about a lot of the time. I, once I had a dream that I had sex with my bo uh, supervisor at work in, in the bathroom at work, and it was during a period of time when she was my direct supervisor and saw everything I did, and she was very, On my side, like she knew how hard I was working and was very, she, she had to fight to promote me because the rest of management who didn't have an eye on me thought I was fucking around.

Hmm. Uh, and I felt like she was my only ally at work. And so I, and I never thought of her like in a sexual way. So I think that like dream's a good example of like processing that, like connection that we had at work where I felt like she's the only one on my side. Mm-hmm. I felt like kind of intimate in a different way, but like, you know what I mean?

That's not really about sex. Yeah. Yeah. The 

[00:46:59] Victor: big picture, like no other detail. Um, entry for sex in the dream Bible is to dream about sex represents positive or pleasurable experience that you're having in waking life. Whomever you have sex with represents equality you're noticing in yourself or a situation that you're enjoying.

So it's literally just like something you're getting a positive experience out of. Yeah. In 

[00:47:24] Zach: life. Yeah. So I think the hard part about this dream is like, other than how winding and long it is, it's just, I feel like, um, it's trying to tell me something. So I'm like, it's not gonna hit on something that, uh, already happened or whatever.

You know what I mean? Yeah. Like, I'm, I'm trying to like, in this moment, process a revelation that it hasn't like, fully happened , you know what I mean? Yeah. Um, 

[00:47:48] Olivia: it's like the basement entry 

[00:47:50] Victor: saying . Yeah. It's like, I don't think we need to get to the thing. It's not like you need, you need to like jump outta your seat and be like, Eureka.

I know I'm a different person now, but like, has 

[00:48:02] Zach: the epiphany now. But that definitely doesn't seem what it's like what it's about. Mm-hmm. . Um, like the, the phrase that I'm getting in my head is, I forget where I got this probably therapy, but, um, An apology without, uh, what is it? An apology without action is just manipulation or something like that.

Mm-hmm. That's, that's like what this is, this conversation is making me think about. Cause I, I think that's like the theme mm-hmm. Is I'm going through, uh, a period of trying to be less self-centered and trying to figure out, like, I don't know how to, I don't know how to phrase it. Yeah. 

[00:48:38] Victor: Uh, it sounds like the, the overarching, um, sense I get from, Is that, um, some, something you maybe are thinking about or you're, you, like that's crossing your mind occasionally is, um, like the need to like do some self work.

Right. Or like, um, uh, like on some level feeling like I'm gonna have to stop doing this eventually, or I'm going to need to start doing this eventually with like a heavy sigh and like a knowledge that it's gonna be a pain to 

[00:49:15] Zach: change. Especially for an introvert. Cause I think the distinction here, because I feel like I've been doing self work for a long time, but I think the key difference here is, has to do with like, genuinely applied to others' self-work.

Hmm. Cause like I was saying earlier about changing in a vacuum, like that's, that's great. You're different, but like, No one. Like what, what does it mean if you're not like being a part of, of things and like applying the work that you've done to, to actually, when I think back to that relationship with Liz, like I feel like I learned a hard lesson at the time when she dumped me and I was like, okay, here are X, y, Z things I need to work on.

And then I did, but it was only to not go through that thing again of embarrassing myself and getting dumped. Mm-hmm. , like, I think now I'm process. Getting better in those regards for the sake of being a good person and treating other people better and, and potentially making amends with some people I may have hurt it sounds like.

Does that make sense? It does. It 

[00:50:12] Olivia: does. And it, and it sounds like, um, it sounds like what you're describing is being somewhere, In the process, like whether it's like you've made, you've done 90% of the work, you know, like, but you're, you are not like, fully through that process and that, and like, one thing that I learned in therapy that I like to apply to everything 

[00:50:37] Zach: is like, I love that we can't talk about therapy without mocking themselves for

What a healthy generation. No. 

[00:50:43] Olivia: Um, do you know about the consciousness continuum? Have I ever told you about the consciousness continuum? No. The, like, I find this like really helpful for like all anything you're learning, anything you're working on. Um, we talk about this all the time. Coming up all the time.

Yeah. It like, totally, it helps me understand where I'm at with something and where other people are at with something, anything. Um, but, so it's, the idea is that, um, when there's a thing that you're, that you're gonna need to eventually work on and, and fix for yourself or change, um, or just learn like a skill that you're gonna learn, you start in a place.

Of unconscious incompetence, meaning that you are not aware of the fact that you're incompetent at this thing. And 

[00:51:34] Zach: then I do know what you're talking about, right? I think I've seen a 

[00:51:35] Olivia: graph or something. Yeah, I think I probably drew it for you at some point. I'm just gonna finish this for the listeners.

Um, please do. But so the second stage is conscious incompetence. And that is just that you have been made aware of this thing that you're incompetent at. So like somebody pointed out to you, li Liz points out to Zach, like, you're doing this thing that's toxic and I don't like it and I'm not gonna stick around for it.

And I don't know, that probably wasn't the first time that you were made aware of it. You were probably already there, but like maybe that's the first time you're like, oh shit, that's. 

[00:52:09] Zach: First time anyone was that direct about 

[00:52:10] Olivia: it or just like, yeah, anyway, like it's the first time that you're made aware of a thing that you need to work on.

But the, the conscious incompetence phase is that you are aware of the problem and you still are operating the same way. Like you don't know how to change, you don't have to do it differently. The next step is conscious competence, where it's like you've gotten to the place where you can put a lot of effort into doing it differently.

But it takes a lot of, it takes conscious effort. It takes like thinking about it and it, and it's like, it's not easy, you know? And then the last place is the unconscious competence phase where it's like, you don't even think about it. It's like behind you, you've fully gone through the process of changing this thing or learning this skill and you're doing it differently.

And it, and like, I don't know if this, how, if this directly applies to what you're talking about, but it sounds like this, this thing that is still like hanging over you is maybe like the. You're not fully through to unconscious competence because you're still consciously thinking about it on some level.

Like it's still a thing that is like you're thinking about and concerned 

[00:53:20] Zach: with. Yeah. Yeah. I think that that is relevant and um, cuz I think it has to do with like, I have done all this self-work. I, I feel like, I'm sure there's like a lot more to go, but part of the feeling right now is like, well, I've done all this work.

I've, I've changed a bunch, why don't I feel better? Hmm. And it's like, well, because you're, I'm, I, I think maybe I still feel like I'm standing in my own way. I'm not yet, I haven't yet learned how to apply these changes in this betterment to real life scenario. 

[00:53:53] Olivia: And the old man was like in your way, in your dream, right?

[00:53:57] Zach: Yeah. Well, he was in Liz's way at first. He was like blocking the basement. Right. And 

[00:54:01] Olivia: he's, you push him down the stairs and he's, you He was in 

[00:54:03] Zach: her way. Yeah. And she, so I got Got him out of her life. Yeah. . But he is me. So wherever you go, there you are. Yeah. Um, and then the , the super hot middle part. I guess I feels like the same, the same concept just kind of applied to a deeper, um, less specific history that less to do with, um, romantic relationships and more to do with like, people in general.

Yeah. Because again, this wasn't like my best friend, uh, or even somebody I've thought about in a long time might be like the perfect, my brain's like best representative for like, just someone, you know what I mean? Yeah. Like a human being. It 

[00:54:40] Victor: sounds like someone that you have like a little bit of anxiety about how you're perceived by that person.

[00:54:46] Zach: Yeah. 

[00:54:46] Victor: Yeah. What you're saying about like, feeling like you've made these changes but they haven't been actualized. Remind me of this thing that I, I heard one time probably like an Alan Watts 

[00:54:56] Zach: thing, but like, um, actualize, that's a good word for it. Yeah. But, um, 

[00:55:01] Victor: I, I remember like it. Like introverted, introspective people.

I think this especially applies to, but sometimes when you're in your own head, you can kind of think of yourself as like, oh, I'm this, I'm this node. Uh, and there's a, there's a separation between me and everything else. And like I have to reach out and connect with other things that are, you know, outside of myself, right.

That, um, you know, you exist in a little bubble of consciousness separate from all the other little bubbles of consciousness. Um, but there's another way to think about what it is to be an individual or to, to be a, to be a person, which is instead of being a node, you are an intersection point of all of these other people and experiences and things happening around you.

Because if you take, take everything outside of yourself away, there is nothing. Right? So what we are is, um, Kind of where all of these things that are not us meet. Right. And so like for you, it's like you feel like, you feel like you've made these changes, but they haven't made their way out into the real world yet you haven't become the person that has changed because, you know, like you said, I think you haven't dated for a while, or like, maybe you're not making new connections in the same way that, uh, you did in high school or whatever.

And um, yeah. Even though, even though you're doing all this work inside yourself, the you, you aren't real until, uh, you're, you're, you know, being of service to others or you know, Being your best self with people, um, instead of just thinking about what you would do in certain situations. 

[00:56:46] Zach: Yeah, no, that makes perfect sense.

That is Cause I feel like that's where the, where the blockage is, is between the interior self and the, and the outside world. Like, I'm trying to think of an example, but I still, I feel like on a pretty regular basis, I still have opportunities to like, take different micro paths than I have in the, in the past and still don't for whatever reason.

But I, I think one reason maybe like, yeah, that introversion where it's like this, I could do this little thing that like advances me forward in the realm of like, um, the community at large. You know what I mean? But like, people are exhausting. So I'm just gonna kind of shut my mouth and like slowly back away.

Hmm. Mm-hmm. , that was really vague cause I couldn't think of a example, but I. I can't think of an example because I think it happens on these micro levels. Yeah, 

[00:57:34] Victor: yeah. Like a, like a thing that I am, I kind of wrestle with as like an introverted person is like, I feel like I've grown in a way where I've come to a place where it's like I can really appreciate that.

Um, people are, are the most important thing. And um, you know, having relationships with other people is like really, um, the purpose of of being alive and yet still am like anxious and exhausted by people. I don't really wanna meet anybody else and I don't really wanna make a new connection. So it's like, oh, I can see like where happiness comes from and what the point of everything is, but it doesn't change that.

I'm still someone that doesn't like to engage with it a lot of the time. 

[00:58:15] Zach: Yeah. I feel compelled to tie it to Olivia's dream, but I don't wanna like reveal anything that we touched on when we were off the air. 

[00:58:22] Olivia: Um, well, how about you do it and if we need to cut it Sure. It just won't be there for you guys.

[00:58:28] Zach: Yeah. , because I can tie it to the broad level of what we were talking about with your dream. Yeah. But like, as you move through life, certain things don't serve you anymore. Mm-hmm. and hopefully a lot of times those just shed away. But your dream was a little bit about like working to keep some of those things around.


[00:58:45] Olivia: totally. And like finding other things that I, that actually do serve me and, you know, choosing to put more energy into that 

[00:58:55] Zach: instead. Yeah. And I feel like I have this problem where I let a lot of those things shed away and that is good when those things aren't, don't, don't serve you, but maybe I've let a lot more fall by the wayside mm-hmm.

and haven't made more going forward. So it's just kind of closing in on itself and becoming more and more isolated. Because, you know, when I talk about like toxic things from the pat, like behaviors and patterns, a lot of people that I know now that I'm close to be like, I can't, I can't picture you acting like that, Zach.

And I'm like, well, yeah, we're still friends. You know what I mean? Like, I, I don't think I've done a lot of work to, to fix things other than myself. Hmm. And so the things that are naturally going to still orbit me, um, by virtue of just simply doing that are still there, but there's nothing new. Anything that was broken is either demolished or is still broken.

I do think, 

[00:59:49] Victor: you know, some, sometimes there is value in, in going back and trying to make amends for things, but sometimes. You're doing more damage. Mm-hmm. doing that. Or like, if it's coming from a self-serving place, you know, like sometimes when, sometimes like the apology isn't about that person. Sometimes the apology is about you and trying to prove to yourself that you've grown or changed or better or whatever, and you're looking for some kind of validation from somebody of like, actually you're, you're a good person now.

I don't think bad things about you anymore. You know? And it's Right. That's a thing is like, that's my better to just move on. Just roll on, try and try and do things right the next time around with 

[01:00:30] Olivia: I agree. I agree. And I also think like, it doesn't hurt to do it usually if, but like, you have to be good with like, if that person says, no, fuck you and you really hurt me.

Yeah. And I don't fucking ever wanna hear from you again. Is that gonna ruin you? Is that gonna hurt more? Because if that's it, yeah. Then you weren't doing it for the right reasons. 

[01:00:52] Zach: But Liz is an interesting vehicle for this cuz it's, if I called her now and like, even if I could definitively prove that I'm different, it wouldn't, nothing, it wouldn't matter.

Like it doesn't change anything. Hmm. Well I think 

[01:01:04] Victor: like if you're doing that, I, if you were doing that because you felt like you had left her with a wound that you could help heal, you know, then that would be the right reason to do it. If you're doing it because you're like trying to suck her into your own, like hero's journey where you're the protagonist and she's like, you know, like early character development and now your arc is that you are, you know, re like fixing things with this person, leave her alone.

You know, like cuz it's not, you know, she's gonna feel that and it's, it's just gonna be more, uh, burden that you're piling on top of that person. 

[01:01:42] Zach: Yeah. Which is why the old man came back for just me when I was alone. Yeah. Because it never was her, her problem. Yeah. It's a good dream, 

[01:01:50] Olivia: Zach. 

[01:01:52] Zach: Yeah, it's kinda more nebulous than I was.

I was hoping to like clip onto like one specific, like that's okay. That 

[01:01:58] Olivia: there was a lot of meaning in there. It's like not all of them are gonna be neatly packaged, like psycho analyses, you know? They're, I think that we're all a little more complex and that like, I have dreams like this all the time. I usually don't bring them here cuz I'm worried that, but I might start doing that cuz I know what they, I feel like Yeah.

Or like, cuz I'm worried that we're gonna like circle around things for a long time and just like, not get anywhere. But like, I don't know that I, like, 

[01:02:25] Zach: I remember I felt like this was going for a minute, but, but 

[01:02:27] Olivia: I like, I liked this like, I feel like there are things that tie together. It's not like, I don't think it always has to be like a we we cracked it kind of situation.

[01:02:36] Zach: Yeah. I mean the dream does. It felt completely disjointed when I was telling it and now it does feel like it's all about one thing. Mm-hmm. . Um, which to try to like land the plane , it's like the idea of growing up and, and, and maturing and changing for the better. Um, oh shit. What is it? Oh, wow. Fuck. What does young call it?

Trying to tie this into the name of the podcast by using it some young terminology. Um, individuating, it's about individuating. Um, and, and the membrane through which you have to cross to actually have to, to, to actually make that, um, complete, I guess in, in, in terms of like your relationship to the, to reality.

Yeah. As opposed to just sorting it out in your head and kind of like living in the cocoon forever. 

[01:03:25] Victor: Yeah. I feel like with both of your dreams, they felt like at first glance on the surface level really random and uh, like your brain's just churning out whatever silly thing it thinks of, you know, a scene at a time.

And yet when we dig into 'em with like a. These tools, you know? Um, it's really interesting how it can like, come together as a coherent story. I still don't know what I believe about, like, whether we're just projecting meaning onto clouds with this, you know? Yeah. Or if, um, our brains really are like, you know, constructing these like, you know, clever, clever ways to try and guide us.

[01:04:07] Zach: Yeah. I can't help but think that we're processing stuff cuz it's the most subconscious you get when you're, 

[01:04:12] Olivia: that makes more sense to 

[01:04:14] Zach: me that from your subconscious, I don't know if I believe in like a divine meaning, you know? Hmm. Like, uh, inherently or cosmically inherent symbolism, but, but I just, 

[01:04:25] Olivia: just, I don't even think it's cosmic.

I think it's just like cultural, you know? 

[01:04:30] Zach: Sure. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I lean towards, towards believing that. 

[01:04:33] Victor: Yeah. I don't, I don't think there's anything spooky going on with this, but it's, it's cool to like, Really see, it's like the shared subconscious or whatever, right? Or like, you know, shared consciousness of like, we all exist together in a shared world, and so our dreams are connected.

[01:04:52] Zach: Yeah, and the more we do this, the less I do tend to believe that any given dream is just a random set of images that we're projecting meaning onto. Hmm. I do feel like it's, um, most of the time they're meaningful in some way, shape, or form. Thanks for listening. Follow 

[01:05:08] Olivia: us on social media at The Jung and the Restless Pod and submit your dreams for interpretation to The Jung and the Restless Pod at Gmail.

[01:05:15] Victor: And as we always say, you can't always get what you want, but if you try, sometimes you just might find no, you still can't get what you want.

[01:05:32] Zach: For now, the clock is streaming. Welcome.

[01:06:21] Victor: Do you have a dream that you'd like read on an episode, but don't want us to dive into the deep, dark, nooks and crannies of your psyche? We'll leave it in a review on Apple Podcasts and we'll read it without trying to penetrate your soul with our keen gaze. 

[01:06:37] Zach: Long, hard, keen gaze, .

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