EPISODE

10. Olivia and the Amazing Technicolor Dreamcoats

Shifting Perspectives, Part One: The Dream Team discusses phobias, sleep cycles, and the Loch Need Ness monster. Victor may be…...

Shifting Perspectives, Part One: The Dream Team discusses phobias, sleep cycles, and the Loch Need Ness monster. Victor may be sleeping TOO well. Olivia has a symbol-heavy dream about autumn jackets and the subjective perception of their color. Zach loses the internet, prompting a heartfelt discussion about love languages between our resident married couple in the midst of technical difficulties. A conversation about brunch somehow turns into a discussion on artistic identity and creative expression.

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00:53 Intro

15:54 Olivia's dream

About Dream Bible:

Dream Bible is a free online A to Z dream dictionary dedicated to helping people understand the meaning of their dreams. Unlike other dream interpretation websites or books we extensively research dream symbols by interviewing people about the events occurring in their lives at the time of their dreams.  Inspired by the work of Gillian Holloway Ph.D, we are using a database of over 350,000 dream reports to create the world's most practical dream dictionary based on the waking life experiences of regular people.

http://www.dreambible.com/

Dream Bible entries used in this episode:

Autumn: https://www.dreambible.com/search.php?q=autumn

Coat: https://www.dreambible.com/search.php?q=coats

Blue: https://www.dreambible.com/search.php?q=blue

Red: https://www.dreambible.com/search.php?q=red

Light: https://www.dreambible.com/search.php?q=light

Follow us on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/thejungandtherestlesspod/

Check out our website for episode transcripts: https://thejungandtherestlesspodcast.com/

Submit your dreams for interpretation to thejungandtherestlesspod@gmail.com


Episode Transcript

10. Shifting Perspectives Pt 1. Olivia and the Amazing Technicolor Dream Coats

[00:00:00] zach: Hey, sweet Dreamers. It's your boy, Zach from the Young and the Restless. I just wanted to let you know that as a new podcast, we're still in that phase where Apple Podcast reviews have a, a weirdly disproportionately high impact on our success. So it would really mean the world to us if you would, you know, give us five stars over there.

And if you leave a dream in the review, we'll give you a shout out and take a stab at interpreting it on the show. I mean, even if you hate us, we'll read your hate mail on air if you leave it in the body of a five star review and we'll still love you anyway on with the show.

[00:00:53] victor: Welcome to The Jung and the Restless. I'm Victor.

[00:00:55] Zach: I'm Zach.

[00:00:56] Olivia: And I'm Olivia. And this is the podcast where you're in your house, but like not your real house.

I had like a, I've been having dreams about dreaming lately. Meta, and I had like a short one that was kind of funny. So I've, um, I'm wearing this, like this aura ring, it's like a biometrics thing. Um, it measures my sleep. And activity and all kinds of stuff. And I had a dream that it had this new feature where it would like trans, it would like transcribe, like, uh, images from your dream, like your dream imagery into a little blurb, like a little description of your dream.

And you could read them on the app later. And, um, it had like the other night it like, That would be so cool. I know. I'm like, God damn. I woke up. I was like, God damn it, I wish that was real. Then I don't have to keep my own Dream Journal it like, but it, it titled My dreams and I just remember one of them was titled Fart Heim.

And then it was tagged fart. With like three T's. It was tagged, like it was tagged for like SEO purposes. It was tagged fart ice. Funny German . 

[00:02:37] zach: Germans do have their fart humor is the impression I get. We should, well, nevermind. I was gonna say get to work on that technology. Oh yeah, 

[00:02:44] victor: I know. Yeah. Trademark, trademark.

Patent pending. We're coming next year. The Aura Dream. I don't know. Aura Dream Ring. 

[00:02:53] zach: It's like a fit. Mm, mm-hmm. , but a ring, dream ring, that, 

[00:02:58] olivia: that is what it is. But it's like, yeah. And it, it mostly does track my sleep, which has been really interesting cuz like I can see, like, it makes a little graph of what types of sleep I'm in.

Like you're talking about a real device now? Yeah. No, I have, it's on my finger right now. Um, it is like a Fitbit, but it's a ring, but it doesn't, unfortunately, it doesn't, uh, like AI transcribe my dreams. That would be cool. Uh, but it, but it does measure my sleep and I can see a little graph of all of the times where I'm in r e m and it tells me how much time I'm, like, how much time I spend in like, REM sleep.

Um, which is just interesting cuz it, it, it's like, oh, there's a dream. There's a dream. There's a dream. 

[00:03:44] zach: Yeah. The Fitbit does something like that. I wear mine to bed, but it, I can't remember if it like actually tracks the cycles or if it's just like, Deep, you are based on your heart, right? Hmm. Because I don't think this is something I don't think we've talked about.

Uh, but dreaming means, and it's something I'm not entirely clear on. When you're dreaming, that means you're not getting as much rest as you could be. Right? 

[00:04:08] victor: think it's, if you're remembering your dreams, that means your REM sleep is getting interrupted. Like you're being woken up from rem and so you're remembering it because if you completed your REM cycle, You wouldn't wake up to Then remember your dream.

You 

[00:04:24] zach: wouldn't wake up during a dream, right, right. Is what you're saying. You would like go back through the sleep cycles prior to that, before waking up. 

[00:04:31] victor: Oh, interesting. Because when you remember your dreams, it's not like, oh, I remember I had this, this, and this dream throughout the night and then I woke up in from darkness.

It's like I woke up and I was just dreaming about 

[00:04:44] olivia: blah, blah, blah. Well, that's interesting cuz I, it makes me wanna look at. The graph because I can see all of the places that I'm in REM sleep and. I wonder if I ha if I like wake up. Oh, yeah. No, I do. It's all wasted content, . Oh no. Look, those are all the dreams that I couldn't tell you about, right?

So that's our, but the where there's a little white spike, that's the light blue is rem, and then the little white spike immediately after that. That's me waking up. It's a waste 

[00:05:14] victor: of perfectly good content. There's 

[00:05:16] olivia: so much content 

[00:05:17] victor: here. What we need is, this is I, I sit awake all night. Waiting for you to fall into REM sleep.

You watch my eyeballs and then I, I let it play out for like a couple minutes and then I violently shake you awake, . And, um, we could be out two episodes a week. 

[00:05:32] zach: Olivia is already such a prolific dreamer. I think we need to do this to you. Oh, no, 

[00:05:36] olivia: that's true. I need to 

[00:05:37] zach: wake you up. Vi. Victor's been ha you've been having far too restful nights.

[00:05:43] olivia: You sleep 

[00:05:43] zach: too good. . Yeah. We need you. One of these rings. No, we need more gems like the Mashed potato Dream. Yeah, . So we get you one of these rings and like track it for like a week and we're like, okay, this is when Victor's in rem and then let's just set alarms for you. Hmm hmm. Yeah. 

[00:05:59] victor: You're 

[00:06:00] olivia: gonna drive my husband crazy 

[00:06:02] zach: and he'll like have all these like awesome deep dreams, but it'd just be like bags under his eyes when we're recording.

Just inarticulate. I, I 

[00:06:15] victor: dreamt, uh, fly night last was, was fun. Dream

[00:06:25] zach: I miss sleep. But yeah, in literature, like that's, that's like a common expression like. I see it in books more than anywhere, where they're like, I fell into a dreamless sleep. Meaning they got like a, a good night's sleep. Mm, mm-hmm. . But I always associate having lots of dreams with, with having a good night's sleep.

Yeah. 

Cuz 

[00:06:42] olivia: I have a better time. . It's more 

[00:06:45] zach: entertaining. Yeah. And I just, I feel like I'm asleep for longer, so maybe psychological. I wake up thinking I got more sleep because dreaming feels like real time. I know it's not, but when I just close my eyes and then open them and it's eight hours later, 

[00:07:01] victor: much less much like drinking, not remembering what you did means you had the best possible time.

[00:07:09] zach: Yeah. That's tho Yeah. Well those are the other, the two forms of dreamless nights are, are, uh, apparently one is the, In terms of like sleep quality and the others, that happens when I've been drinking . Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm. close my eyes and then they open again and it's like time to go to work and and I don't feel so good.

Yeah. 

[00:07:32] olivia: So what have you been dreaming about lately, Zach? 

[00:07:35] zach: So I'm on a weird sleep schedule. I've been going to bed at like 10:00 PM and getting up at five or six in the morning. Okay. Uh, on my of my own volition. Um, and I feel like that's been, there's something about getting up before the sun. I feel like there, there's more dream residue kicking around in your head.

Mm-hmm. . Um, this, I feel like if, if we , if this podcast were our only source of like our. And we wanted to get real ambitious with it. We, we should record the podcast at like seven in the morning. Like as soon as we get up, like be before reality kicks in. You know what I mean? 

[00:08:06] olivia: I have tried like making, uh, voice memos instead of writing it down.

Cuz maybe we should do that and then we can play them on the dream, on the pod. 

[00:08:18] zach: The memo, the memos. Yeah. Like 

[00:08:19] olivia: record your, record your, uh, dream with a little voice memo. First thing 

[00:08:25] zach: in the morning. Yeah. I'm actually trying to do the pod first thing in the morning, but that would be probably not that entertaining.

Well, yeah, 

[00:08:31] olivia: that's the thing is like the dream would be fresh, but we wouldn't. 

[00:08:34] zach: Hmm. Oh. But anyway, my , what I was getting at is I've been dreaming a lot. Uh, I've been having a lot of, um, lucid moments. Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm. and a lot of flying. I, we talk about you co-opting my dreams a lot. I think I've been stealing your fly.

Your lucid flying thing. Yeah. 

[00:08:50] olivia: I haven't been flying lately. You've stolen 

[00:08:52] zach: it. . But I'm too scared to use it. I keep, uh, I guess I'm not fully lucid. Cause when you're lucid, you're supposed to like, not be afraid. Mm-hmm. , you know, cause you know it's a dream so you're not gonna get hurt or whatever. Mm-hmm. . But I guess I still get too scared to go too high.

Well, I wonder if that's 

[00:09:07] olivia: cuz you're afraid of heights 

[00:09:08] zach: though, right? But I shouldn't be in a dream when I know it's not real height. Yeah, but isn't it 

[00:09:13] olivia: like more, I don't know. Uh, I feel like that kind of fear isn't necessarily always logical, like, Is your fear of airplanes about heights? No, it's claustrophobia.

Oh, okay. Well, , 

[00:09:27] victor: it's a really interesting point though because you still get a fear of heights kicking in even when it's like not possible for you to fall. Right. And so it's like right. You know on some level that you're fine, but it's not about that. Or it's like, yeah, in your gut, maybe you don't feel safe or something, 

[00:09:46] zach: but yeah, it's like your eyes see it and send a involuntary message to your brain to produce a bunch of adrenaline.

Right. 

[00:09:53] olivia: It's like, it reminds me of have you ever been swimming in a lake and like gotten a little bit scared of 

[00:09:59] zach: sharks? Oh yeah. . Oh no. I thought you were gonna say of just being too far from the. Oh, well, no, no, not sharks, . I mean, like, 

[00:10:08] olivia: not like realistically, but I can like, let my mind go there a little bit.

Like, I'm like, Ooh. It's like murky and the seaweed is touching my legs. Ooh, what was that? Like? I can freak myself out about something that I know is not really a valid concern, um, just based on. The stimuli I'm presented 

[00:10:27] victor: with. Yeah. Deep water freaks you out. Even if it's in a lake where there's nothing big in that lake.

Yeah, 

[00:10:34] zach: yeah. You can still drown. 

[00:10:36] olivia: I, I don't care about that. . Yeah. 

[00:10:40] zach: The worst way to go. I did. I fell asleep on a floaty thing on Lake Washington. And, uh, woke up and was really far from the shore and I panicked. I panicked a little bit even though I knew you were floating. . I was floating and I knew I had the strength and energy to paddle, but I knew it was gonna take a minute, you know.

And there's something about that, I think that comes down to claustrophobia too. Just anytime I feel like I'm gonna be trapped somewhere. 

[00:11:05] olivia: Mm mm-hmm. , I have a fear of things sinking. Like I am not afraid of like being in the water or going underwater. I'm not afraid of like scuba diving, snorkeling. I'm not actually afraid of underwater deep water, but I am afraid of being on a thing.

That is not supposed to sink, like something that's supposed to float and it going under E to a point where it's. There, there were like times where we'd be like on an inner tube or something, like if you've ever gone inner tubing behind a boat. Um, and if you, like, if you lean forward on the inner tube while you're going kind of slow, but the boat is pulling it, it'll like sink the front end under and it'll, it'll just like go under for like a foot and then it'll pop back up because it's like, it's not actually sinking.

The pa like the panic that I feel is unmatched and I, and I think about being on like a, a fairy boat sinking. That would freak me the fuck out. That would freak me out. 

[00:12:08] zach: Yeah. Well that makes complete sense. That doesn't really sound like a phobia. 

[00:12:12] olivia: No. Yeah. But like the inner tube isn't really that rational

[00:12:16] zach: Yeah. Neither are the sharks. . 

[00:12:20] olivia: You never know. Lake Lake Sharks. There was, um, I've seen seals get through the locks and into Lake Washington from the 

[00:12:30] zach: ocean. That's pretty 

[00:12:31] victor: cute. Picturing a shark trying to like pick a lock,

[00:12:38] zach: The locks. I did for half a second. Forget what the locks were. I 

[00:12:42] olivia: was gonna, I was just thinking, I was like, oh, do people not from water areas know what locks are? Or like, I didn't, I guess you have to have a lake near the ocean for locks to make sense. Yeah, 

[00:12:54] zach: I think it's a sound thing, isn't it? Yeah. Cause I.

On the East coast next to that water, and I didn't know what a lock was till I moved to Seattle. All right, so 

[00:13:02] victor: for anyone that doesn't know, a lock is a giant padlock that's used to secure a door that separates large lakes from the ocean. We, we like have to like turn the giant combination and pop the giant curved bar or whatever and pull the thing out of the door to fill the lake, period.

Every year we have to do it. It's a big festival, right? And then we have to get a crane to drop the big padlock back in. But, uh, it's neat if you've never seen it, you know, come out to Washington for the, uh, lock festival. 

[00:13:39] olivia: Okay. Half of that's bullshit, but it's not totally 

[00:13:42] zach: wrong. And it's a, it is one of the padlocks with the number, the rolling numbers.

Yeah. And everybody can see, they get guys to run on 'em. To turn the numbers and because they don't want the public knowing the numbers. There's a guy with a megaphone that's just like, don't look 

[00:13:56] victor: every couple years. We forget the combination . And we have to scour the state looking for the little piece of paper that it's written on 

[00:14:03] olivia: somebody.

Actually, somebody always knows it, but they like to like make a scavenger hunt for us and uh, so we all have to go find the combination. 

[00:14:12] zach: Is that where the Lochness monster comes from? Is that the Locke and Lochness? 

[00:14:16] olivia: L O C H just means Lake. Mm-hmm. in 

[00:14:20] zach: Gaelic. 

[00:14:21] victor: Yeah. So it's a Lake Nest monster. Her name's Nest.

Oh, nest. Sorry. Nest. Nest. Yeah. 

[00:14:30] olivia: I see her Nest. . The monster. . The monster of the 

[00:14:35] victor: lock. . Nesty. . Well, so what's a 

[00:14:40] olivia: nest? Her name's Nesty. It's her name. 

[00:14:44] victor: Okay. I know, but I thought that was 

[00:14:45] olivia: the right, oh, wait. No, you're right. Nest. That means something. No, you're right. The, that's the name of the lake. Her name's Nessie.

Oh, so Lake Ness. It's Lochness. Okay. That's the Gotcha. The lake 

[00:14:54] zach: Wikipedia. Oh, they do in Scotland. Call their lakes locked. 

[00:14:59] olivia: Yeah. We, we went 

[00:15:00] victor: over this . And they're nests. Nests. Well, I didn't get it. . 

[00:15:04] zach: How's this bee so hard to find. It just lives in a lock. It's like a, 

[00:15:07] victor: well, it's kind of like a, it's like a, like a shred Ander's monster.

Right? And it kinda is and isn't there. And when you try and observe it, it like fades into another reality where it's not there. Unlike Bigfoot who can simply turn invisible. Let's do a 

[00:15:22] olivia: dream. 

[00:15:23] zach: All right. We're really giving the. Crypted podcasts out there run for their money. , 

[00:15:31] victor: the, those are the podcasts I listen to clearly

[00:15:45] olivia: what?

Okay, so this dream was from the other night, um, two nights ago, and it started with Victor and I were at a, like a parent teacher conference. We were in a classroom and the first thing I remember is that I could s I had two different views of myself. I. A view of like the way you can look down and see your body cuz you are in it and then like first person also.

Yeah. Yes. . And then, but then I was also, I looked over and standing next to, next to Victor was also me. Um, a little bit of cognitive dissonance here because it wasn't really me. It was like an older woman. But, um, I, in this moment, I understood that I was in my body and I was also her. Um, and the thing I noticed, wait, what is 

[00:16:46] zach: that?

[00:16:47] olivia: Disjunctive? Oh, cognitive dissonance is the wrong thing. Disjunctive cognition is what I meant to say. . Okay. Um, but, so I'm standing there. And the thing I notice is that my jacket that I'm wearing when I look down at myself is different than my jacket. When I look at her and I am, I'm say to Victor, I'm like, oh, I, I, I think I said, look at this neat effect, which is like me commenting on the dream.

It was like a, a dream effect to me. It was like, um, I don't know. Anyway, I, like, I was, I said like her jacket is, her jacket's red and my jacket's blue. Um, and then she says to me, no, my jacket's blue. And I said, no, it's not, it's red. And she's like, I know my jacket. It's blue. And then the teacher in the classroom says, No, actually it's the light coming in from the window.

And I realize that like outside the window are a bunch of bright red autumn trees, and it's like reflecting this bright red light and making her jacket look red. And I'm like, oh, that's, that's really beautiful. And I go and I stand in the light. And I'm like showing it to Victor and then the teacher is like, let's take a picture.

And she like, she takes a picture of us and then we all like toast. There's suddenly a, a bunch of other people there and we all toast with apple cider . And we, and we all take a sip of apple cider. And then I look over at Victor and he's crying and I like start to comfort him. And then I realize that everybody's crying.

And um, and then we realized that we're all like high, we're on like mushrooms, like that. There was like mushrooms in the apple cider. And then, um, the only thing, other thing I remember is that for the rest of the dream, we're like sitting on the floor in like a circle in this classroom. And, um, I took off my shirt and my bra 

[00:18:57] zach: just 

[00:18:57] olivia: because.

Yeah, I don't, um, actually no, it wasn't just because it was because I was, it was very itchy and uncomfortable. 

[00:19:05] zach: Mm-hmm. wasn't a girls gone wild situation. 

[00:19:08] olivia: No. It was like so uncomfortable. I just wanted it off and nobody seemed to care. 

[00:19:13] zach: So the whole thing took place in the classroom. Right. 

[00:19:15] olivia: Yeah. Yeah. I wish I could, I wish I could describe this feeling of like being in my body and then also.

This person that I'm looking at is also me. It was like in the, at the beginning, I related more to her as being me, but I was seeing it from my view. Hmm. The thing I was commenting on to you, Victor was like, Oh, cool. I'm looking at me from over here. Yeah, 

[00:19:41] victor: like started out as a third person dream where you're just kind of like visually following yourself.

Mm-hmm. . And then you shift into having like an independent body and an independent identity from the you you were just 

[00:19:55] olivia: watching. Yeah. And I don't remember her for the rest of the dream after like, I stepped out over into the light and was, and then like around the time that they took the picture, like I don't remember her and the rest of 

[00:20:07] victor: it.

What I find really interesting about this dream is it's like, um, you're like testing the boundaries, like the physical limitations of the dream. You know, it's like you're, uh, you're having this whole experience with your other self, right? And then, uh, you guys are examining like the effect of. On color within the room.

Mm-hmm. , like, it's all very like, physical and material in a dream space. Uh, and then like going into the hallucinogen experience, right. That's like another shift in your perception of the, or like the physical experience mm-hmm. Of the dream. It's like a very physical dream. 

[00:20:48] zach: Yeah. And there's multiple approaches to the idea of perspective.

Mm-hmm. , like literally there's a first and a third person perspective, but then the, the whole red versus blue. Mm-hmm. thing having to do with like a vantage point where you're in the light. Yeah. 

[00:21:03] olivia: Oh. Almost like, 

[00:21:05] zach: like the golden blue dress from 2015 or 

[00:21:08] olivia: that, that's what they're, and then the last shift of, in perspective is like, or the most classic shift in perspective.

Um, so yeah, I do think that's like, that seems like the through line here is like, it's a perspective dream 

[00:21:22] victor: seems, it sounds like, like a stress test of like your dreams. Like what your dream's capable of, you know? Mm-hmm. , you're like, you're, you're trying to do like max settings on your dream. . 

[00:21:37] zach: Yeah. Which kind of like, to me makes it feel like, uh, it ma it makes sense then why It would be like all in one setting.

Cuz like if your brain is playing with like these really complex ideas, it's like, well, let's not muddy it up by like traveling or like adding too many characters. Let's see how much we can do. With these like concepts in this controlled environment. 

[00:21:58] victor: Yeah. And nothing happens. There's no plot, there's no like, there's not really any tension other than you arguing with yourself.

Which you unusual experience, which, yeah. From Olivia Dream. Yeah. And like, your experience of that was, um, like, oh, what a neat effect. Like, oh, who, who thought of this? Yeah. Uh, like, oh, D, duplicate Olivia technology. Or testing that out. 

[00:22:23] olivia: I also remember feeling like, like I wasn't supposed to say something, but I had to, like, in that moment I was like, It was like I was seeing you and me, who was this older woman, like showing up for the parent teacher conference and I'm over here and I'm like, uh uh.

Sorry. I just, I have to say something like, I had to like interject, like look at this cool effect that's happening, but it was like I was interrupting the dream almost I, or I was interrupting what was about to happen in the. With that, and then the whole dream became about 

[00:22:59] zach: that. Hmm. I was gonna say, I wonder where I was going before, but I guess it's all like, something I've realized more and more since we started doing this podcast is that like, just, I guess I've just noticed it in my own, uh, my own dreams, maybe just by virtue of like paying more attention to 'em, but they always feel like improvisational.

Mm-hmm. , like, I can almost feel my mind riding the dream as I. as opposed to this like movie that I'm like dropped into. Yeah. So I guess like if you didn't interrupt your dream with that, it would've just gone, it's impossible to predict where it would've. 

[00:23:31] olivia: Yeah, well it looked like, I feel like I was interrupting the parent teacher conference.

Like it, it felt like that was about to actually happen and then it just never happened. Um, 

[00:23:42] zach: oh wait, so you guys weren't students? You were 

[00:23:44] olivia: No, they're parents and also I'm like, okay, this was so visual, but it was like very autumnal and like the coats that we were wearing. We were wearing like these, not like, not that old fashioned, but they were like kind of vintagey kind of coats and like, I don't know, it is kind of hard to explain like vintage kind of wool coats that were like, you would maybe think of like old people who are maybe older wearing, um, I dunno, sounds cozy.

Yeah. And then it was like, like those were very autumn and then the like red, autumn. And then the apple cider, like I think of apple cider. It is like that's a very autumn thing for me. 

[00:24:31] zach: Yeah, those are all, do you think that's just because it is autumn? I don't know when we're gonna release this, but right now as of recording, it's autumn.

Do you think that's why, or do you think it has to do with the like cultural symbolism of like death and rebirth that comes with the, I 

[00:24:45] olivia: mean, I think we should look at some dream bible things about this dream, don't you guys think? 

[00:24:50] victor: Um, sure. Yeah. What are you thinking? Like parent teacher conference? 

[00:24:55] olivia: I would say like the colors red and blue.

[00:24:59] zach: Yeah. I was gonna ask if there was significance to why 

[00:25:01] olivia: I, I mean, I just think so. Yeah, probably , 

[00:25:04] zach: why you were arguing over the colors and then were eventually shown that it wasn't like a matter of objective truth, it was perspective. 

[00:25:12] olivia: Right. And then, um, I don't know, I guess the itchy clothes was like a thing, 

[00:25:18] zach: but, and Victor crying that seemed significant or.

What was, what were the feelings around Victor crying? All of us. Yeah. 

[00:25:25] olivia: Everybody was crying. I, I felt like 

[00:25:28] victor: it started with me crying. Right. 

[00:25:31] olivia: I felt like something was said that, like, um, made you think about something else that made you sad. 

[00:25:38] victor: Well, um, full disclosure, realistically, it's probably because I've been crying lately.

[00:25:46] olivia: Well, you haven't been crying a lot 

[00:25:48] victor: lately. There's been, there's been a couple of things that I haven't been like weeping and sobbing, but there's been a couple of things where we've talked about like, like, uh, childhood trauma stuff that has brought stuff up for me and Olivia have make, I've made Olivia, uh, made Olivia uncomfortable a couple of times.

You've not made me 

[00:26:08] olivia: uncomfortable. Wait, what are you talking? No, 

[00:26:10] victor: I just mean, yeah. Um, but that's happened like. A couple times in the last couple weeks and men 

[00:26:19] zach: have feelings too. 

[00:26:19] olivia: Olivia, full disclosure, he has not made me uncomfortable at all. . Um, I think you're projecting that . Um, but no. Yeah, probab I think it was that, 

[00:26:31] victor: actually, that was the first thing I thought when you, you, you were telling me this.

Yes. This morning or yesterday morning. And when you mentioned it, I was like, uh, yeah, that's, that's about that. So 

[00:26:42] zach: yeah. But you don't mean like, uh, like yeah, like you said in full on weeping, like, um, getting choked up and, 

[00:26:48] victor: yeah. Tears, like getting emotional. Okay. Getting emotional about Victor 

[00:26:51] olivia: was triggered in my dream and then everybody was crying that that was what happened.

It, it was like you were the first person to like, have an emotional resp. But I do remember it being like in response to something. That felt like, uh, you had a personal connection to, so that probably that does make sense that that would be about that. 

[00:27:09] victor: Yeah. But then that kicked off. Oh, now we're all crying.

Why are we all crying? Oh, we're all on hallucinogens. Yeah. And yeah, it was like it, that's the improv thing. But I think the seed of me crying is just like literally there's, I think twice. Like we got talking about, oh, is Zach frozen? Please 

[00:27:27] olivia: stand by the ying and the restless will return shortly.

[00:27:34] victor: We're gonna ride this out. So, dreaming a lot of the time is, um, or like part of what dreaming can be is, uh, preparing you for situations you think you'll experience or on some level are mm-hmm. thinking you need to be better prepared for. Right. So you. I got choked up about something like a couple days ago and, um, on some level that maybe made you feel that you weren't prepared for how to engage with that.

And so now your dream is trying to work through like, how should I handle a situation like this? Mm-hmm. . That makes sense. Yeah. And kind of snuck its way in there of like, on some level it caught ya off. And so then in your background, in your subconscious, you're trying to work through like what's the appropriate response for if this happens again?

[00:28:23] olivia: think like, yeah, I think that, um, 

[00:28:27] victor: filing for divorce , 

[00:28:30] olivia: I think that it's just about like, okay, so what it actually is for me, and this is the case with any person that I like, any, anybody I, um, People want different things when they're in a, he heightened emotional state. Like some people want a hug and some people want like physical contact and like, you know, and some people want space and, um, I think maybe it's just that like, We haven't like, I mean, I've fucking cried plenty of times.

I think like you've had plenty of opportunities to navigate that with me and figure out what I need in those moments, and I haven't had that with you. So like my impulse when that has happened with a couple times this happened is to like, I'll like put a hand on you or something, but I'm not. Like wrapping you into a hug, you know, cuz I don't know if that's the kind of thing that you're gonna react negatively to.

Um, I don't know. And that feels putting a hand on you feels like a happy middle ground between like the physical contact and the space that some people want. I think that's probably what that's about. Yeah. And sometimes I guess like, if you know what you want in those situations, like I'm all ears. But I feel like a lot of the times I like, I don't know what I want when I'm having a moment, you know, until it's 

[00:29:59] victor: happening.

I would say, um, it's situational, right? Mm-hmm. , but, um, like, like the, the, the recent stuff. Yeah. A hand is about the, the max of what I would want, and I am more of like a space person. Like I was, I was kind of trying to, like, I got caught off guard by my own emotion mm-hmm. and then was trying and wanted to compose myself.

Yeah. I sense. And so I have a little bit of space, um, and a little bit of quiet to kind of. Do that. 

[00:30:35] olivia: Yeah. Um, is the hand too much? Do you want, do you not want that ? The hand doesn't bother me. does it, does it do anything for you? 

[00:30:44] victor: It, I, it's hard to say. It's just to say that like, my focus in that moment was not wanting comfort.

It was like being surprised mm-hmm. by something bubbling up for me and then trying to get it back under wraps. Gotcha. And that's not to say that I'm not, like, I, I feel comfortable. Um, yeah. Getting into difficult stuff and getting into difficult emotions, but I, I, um, yeah, when I, when in that moment, what I wanted was to regain composure.

[00:31:13] olivia: Yeah. Well, yeah, that makes sense. Like we were on our way somewhere and like it was a surprise to 

[00:31:20] victor: you, so Yeah. I just didn't, I just didn't think that that would bring that up for me. Yeah. But it did. Yeah. I don't know how much of this is usable, but it's a good conversation for us to have. Yeah, it is. Yeah.

But no, so I mean, it makes perfect sense to me why you would have a dream involving that because you had this experience, you feel like it could happen again and you weren't sure how you were supposed to navigate it. Yeah. So . You're running the simulations? Yeah. 

[00:31:49] zach: Yeah. My internet's shut the bed. All right.

We're 

[00:31:52] olivia: back folks. Yeah, we had some technical difficulties, but we 

[00:31:55] zach: are back. I forgot what the last thing anyone said was. Well, 

[00:31:59] olivia: so in, in the time that you've been gone, um, Victor and I, uh, cracked the case here. 

[00:32:08] zach: Wait for real? I thought you were 

[00:32:08] olivia: joking. No, we kind of did, but we, we kind of have to go, we just barely touched on it.

We just need to kind of, we have to go through with it. Um, so I sent you guys a picture of what the blue wool coat looked like. Um, like a PE coat? Yeah. Yeah. It's a wool light blue coat. And, um, one thing that I maybe didn't, I don't think I clarified this at the beginning, but. At the beginning, I noticed that I was wearing red and she was wearing blue.

But by the time that I was like talking about it, and she was arguing back with me that had switched, and she was saying, no, my coat is blue. And I was saying, no, it's red. 

[00:32:52] victor: So there's this flipping back and forth of a red coat and a blue coat, and which Olivia, 

[00:32:56] zach: the whole time you're talk, the whole time, you're arguing about the color of her coat, right?

Mm-hmm. not, not your. . 

[00:33:02] victor: Got it. There's a slipping of colors and then the teacher, which the symbolism there is obvious, is like, no, no. The only difference here is the light shining through. Right. And so if you look at color symbolism, uh, on the dream Bible, Uh, blue represents positivity and positive, especially light blue.

Light blue especially represents positivity in positive situations. Let me see if I can find it again here. Uh, light blue can also represent a very positive situation or positive choice, while red represents negativity, negative intentions or negative situations. And so it's like a plain is day metaphor for how your perspective or your own, your, your feelings can alter your situation because light represents, um, what was it?

Oh yeah. Clarity, illumination, understanding, 

[00:33:54] olivia: guidance, service. It was literally cast in a negative light. Cast in a red light. 

[00:33:59] victor: So the difference between being in a positive situation for Olivia in a negative situation is this light, right? And 

[00:34:07] olivia: what did the coat mean? The way you protect yourself. 

[00:34:11] victor: So the A coat, uh, represents your protectiveness and defensive persona, how you were shielding yourself from conflict or adversity.

[00:34:21] zach: Ah, you guys got a lot of research done while I was yelling at my wifi router. Yeah. Um, that's interesting. Both those colors here, I can just look, but they did, they have like lots of meanings or. It 

[00:34:34] victor: does say like, red can represent passion, but this is much rarer. There's a whole, there's a whole lot of information, but, um, 

[00:34:41] zach: yeah, but it's a lot of like specific emotions that are all negative.

Mm, mm-hmm. . 

[00:34:46] victor: And it can also represent 

[00:34:48] olivia: blood. I feel like positive and negative, like really cl especially with how it was a light blue jacket, which is especially positive. Like I really do feel. Mm-hmm. , I feel like the positive and negative, um, interpretation is spot on here. 

[00:35:05] victor: Um, so I feel like I, this makes a lot of sense to me.

Um, and the only thing I'm not seeing is necessarily how this, like coat description ties back into like a real experience you're having, um, your protectiveness and defensive persona, how you were shielding yourself from conflict or adversity, you know, be, 

[00:35:24] zach: before my internet cut out, I was starting to piece together like, um, a broader, kinda like maybe imbued with cultural meaning interpretation.

But, but I didn't, I didn't know how to tie it into like your life or what your brain specifically is trying to process. Yeah. But I just, and it's also, you know, laden with my own like biased perspective on things, which is inter the dreams about perspective. But like, cuz when I think of the fall, I think of, well, my birthday's in the fall, it's like next week.

And, uh, so I, I, I always think about mortality, but also with the, the, you know, impending winter and dead leaves and, and, and, you know, Scorpio season is death season and all that. Uh, what I was getting from this dream as we're really talking about it, is, is um, I guess my own, my own shit. Like, like looking at death in the fall.

And Atomal stuff. And I, I've traditionally been bummed out by it, but lately I've grown to like, kind of appreciate it, you know? Cuz the, the older I get, the more I feel like, I don't know, death's not that big a deal or like, everything moves in cycles, you know? Mm-hmm. . So it's like a, it's this flipping of perspective from a positive, negative outlook on it.

That's something that is what it is. Yeah. 

[00:36:37] olivia: Yeah. I also, um, before we read more about the Autumn thing, Something that the feeling was, is usually really important. And in this dream, that light was so beautiful. It was the most beautiful thing I had ever seen. And we were all commenting on it. And the teacher took a picture of it because we looked so beautiful standing in this red light.

[00:37:02] zach: And is that why Victor w and slash everybody else was crying, was like, um, I feel like 

[00:37:07] olivia: something was said like when during the toast something was said. That, 

[00:37:11] zach: but were, were they like emotional tears like you might find at a wedding or were they sorrow, tears, like at a funeral? 

[00:37:18] olivia: It was like something. 

[00:37:20] zach: Mm.

Like were you, you, I think he was sad. Feel like everyone was crying because it was so beautiful. I think it was sad 

[00:37:26] victor: and we, we had talked about that a little bit before he came back on too. He was only gone for like five minutes. Yeah. We talked a lot. Both . Yeah. We got a lot done. 

[00:37:33] zach: Um, it's gonna feel like nothing on the podcast.

I'll just be like a little We recorded this 

[00:37:37] olivia: part though. We were talking about it. We talked, yeah. 

[00:37:40] victor: Yeah, we talked about it, but, um, we talked about how, um, like yeah, a couple of days ago something came up about like some childhood trauma and I had a little bit of like a, like an emotional reaction to it and Olivia was saying that she didn't really know.

What I wanted from her in that moment of like, should she, you know, like kind of shower me with, um, you know, care. Do I want a little bit of space? Do I want just like, uh, like an acknowledgement of she wasn't sure what to do. And so we were talking about, um, how dreams are sometimes, you know, running you through simulations of how to deal with a situation you don't feel fully prepared for.

Right. So it makes perfect sense to me of. Some part of her was taking that as an opportunity to try and run through like, well, if Victor reacts this way again, what should I do? You know? 

[00:38:32] olivia: Well, and it's interesting cuz like when that happened in real life the other day, what I opted for was a, a happy medium, which was that I just put like a hand on your knee.

Like I wasn't gonna like, Like hug you or anything, but I, I didn't want you to feel like I was ignoring you, so I just like, just like a, a middle place or I'm not giving you too much like physical contact or whatever. And that's what I did in the dream was that you started crying and I just put like my hand on your back, but I didn't like, yeah, I, I kind of opted for the same thing.

[00:39:07] zach: Chin up, champ . It's funny how we, you know, have, have discovered that, you know, we're, we're not safe from any benign or innocuous dream actually being about our own, like deep, we're not even safe from each other's dreams. Yeah. 

[00:39:21] olivia: Yeah. . Yeah. My dream is like getting you to talk about . Yeah. Your stuff. 

[00:39:27] victor: Mm-hmm.

It's so funny. Yes. Why don't you, It's dangerous. 

or meditate. Exactly. 

[00:39:35] zach: Yeah. , do you feel like that kind of cracks it or is there more? 

[00:39:39] victor: Well, let me read the autumn entry cuz I, I think this is interesting. I think it plays into what you were saying. Um, and I also totally agree with what you're saying about like, That shift of perspective to like, oh, there's a, there's an end coming to like, no, this is part of the cycle.

Mm-hmm. , you know, I feel like that is like, um, just, just a shift that can happen as you get older, you know? Yeah. And the seasons feel shorter. , you know. Yeah. Um, but autumn, uh, to dream of autumn represents your feelings that a good time is over. The best part of a situation or relationship is finished. Life doesn't feel as good as it did before the sunniness or pleasure of life is gone negatively.

Autumn may reflect your feelings that rough times are ahead feelings that a situation can only go downhill or get worse. 

[00:40:31] olivia: So it's interesting that like. So that first part, and then there's the negatively, whereas in some Dream Bible entries, there will just be a thing that sounds positive or negative, and they, mm-hmm.

won't even address the negatively, which to me implies that this first paragraph is not necessarily negative, even though it sounds negative, like the sunniness or pleasure of life is gone, the best part of a situation is finished. Um, and that's what that maybe. Could mean in mine is that I've been feeling lately, like there are.

Like aspects of, of, um, let's see. How do I wanna say this?

Do you wanna sum it up or do you want me to, I can take a crack at it. I feel like you're better at it than me. So if you are comfortable The 

[00:41:30] zach: tag team. Team, 

[00:41:31] victor: yeah. Okay. So we talked. And, um, we think we know kind of what this dream is about. Can't get into too many details, but, um, Olivia's been dealing with kind of an unpleasant shift, right?

You know, where. Um, as the autumn entry lays out, um, you know, good times are over and away, or like things have, things have transitioned from what they used to be, which she loved, to a new thing, which is different, right? She's been struggling with this, the, the newness of a situation and, um, So what this dream represents is, uh, that autumn is this change, this, um, this feeling of loss.

The coat represents, um, you know, how she's dealing with it, how she protects herself, how she presents herself to navigate this new situation. And, um, the colors of the coats and, and the light shining down represent how her attitude and her perspective. This situation can shift whether she is, she experiences it in a positive way, uh, of embracing this newness, embracing this, um, this, this change or experience in a negative way of missing what used to be or, you know, longing for what was, um, And so, yeah, you know, this got a, this got a little deeper than we thought it was gonna get, got a, got at something that was kind of a heartstring tugging situation.

Um, but I think that ultimately it's kind of a positive dream, cuz I think it's you, you subconsciously trying to grapple with the, the, the idea that you do have some autonomy here, right? You don't have to just like, , you, you, um, you get to choose how you, how you get to feel about these changes. And it 

[00:43:34] olivia: was a positive dream there.

It, the feelings in that dream were like warm and fuzzy. It was not a, it was not a bad dream. So, no, 

[00:43:43] zach: it's interesting, the, uh, there, there are so many like strings of yarn connecting things in this stream and that, that's another one. Just now that this, uh, heartstring you just mentioned that it got. It's funny cuz part of what's being processed and that has to do with something that affected you in real life.

Victor and Olivia's like running a simulation on how she helps you process that. Mm-hmm. and in the process is digging at something, you know, uh, poignant to her. Mm-hmm. . Which is, it's just, you know, the first and third person thing, and then the, the shifting of the colors. Like that's just another, um, example.

And I don't know if your brain did this on purpose, but like another example of, kind of the same thing from a different angle. 

[00:44:25] victor: Yeah. That's another I'm, I didn't, I'm just now realizing this, but that shift of like watching yourself from third person to then having your. Autonomy and first you're a passive partism in, in the dream, and then you do what you're not supposed to do and you point something out and you become an active participant.

That is like so clearly, like going from feeling like you don't have any autonomy, you don't have any choice to like, Choosing. Mm-hmm. and taking control, right? Mm-hmm. , um, yeah. Which just speaks to your ability to determine how you're gonna experience these changes. 

[00:45:02] zach: Yeah. Yeah. And you get to choose where you stand in, in relation to that, the light that the colors aren't inherently there.

Yeah. 

[00:45:11] olivia: Wow, guys, that was really beautiful.

[00:45:45] zach: Um, Brun, like people fucking love, people love brunch, 

[00:45:49] victor: and I don't, I fucking love brunch. I love brunch. God bless. 

[00:45:52] zach: Brunch. Yeah, . I like eating food at that time of day and hanging out with people, but the like, The mimosa, like the drinking aspect of it? Oh, 

[00:46:00] olivia: yeah. Oh, we don't do that either. Like I will sometimes have a Bloody Mary, but like every now and then, not, not as like a regular thing, but it, it totally does.

Just like. I don't know. Like I go home and I'm like, all right, nap time. 

[00:46:15] victor: No. I just like going out on the weekend to spend $20 on biscuits and gravy. That's what I like to do. 

[00:46:21] zach: Yeah, just, just talking to a buddy about that the other day, that very specific, like on we kind of feeling that's like post brunch, where you got like too drunk.

And everyone else is like, all right, see you later. And they're like going off to have the rest of their weekend and you're just like, fuck, I drove here. Yeah. You're just like downtown by yourself. Drunk at like 10 or noon on a Saturday. 

[00:46:43] victor: Yeah. You'll like occasionally have like a bloody Mary, but most of the time we're, we're not drinking at breakfast.

[00:46:50] olivia: Yeah, we're drinking coffee and talking about like board game ideas. . 

[00:46:53] victor: Yeah. I just keep going on and on about board game ideas. So I'm doing this thing where it's like I keep like half baking an idea and then hitting a wall and cycling on to like a new concept instead of finishing the thing that I'm thinking about.

I, 

[00:47:09] zach: I do that with everything. Hmm. Everything creative. 

[00:47:12] victor: It's hard, you know, you gotta, it takes like certain kind of discipline to be like, no, I'm gonna finish an idea. And then do the next thing. But I do think it's helpful to have like a couple things cycling at once. So it's like you can kind of bounce off into an idea and move on to the next thing for a little while.

[00:47:30] zach: Yeah. Homes keep you interested, but I am kind of jealous of people who are like creative but singularly focused. Like somebody who's just a musician or just a writer or whatever when you're Yeah. I think create creative people tend to be good at like several things. Yeah. I felt like, so, you know, tend to be curious people, you know, that like, take things 

[00:47:49] victor: up.

Yeah. No, that's true. Um, sorry, I didn't mean to be talking over, you were trying to finish that. Oh, no, 

[00:47:55] zach: no. We were just, we were thinking at the same time. 

[00:47:58] victor: I, I feel like in college I was singularly focused on music and it was not healthy for me, uh, mentally. Um, cuz then it's like when you're doing one thing, you kind of hang your, your self worth off of that thing.

Yeah. And it turned me into the kind of person that like didn't like to listen to music cuz it would, it was either like, It was either like, uh, I would listen to it and I would be like, oh, this is worse than what I'm doing, so why is this person, you know, you know, ha having success in this. I need to work harder.

And then it would be somebody who was better than me and be like, Ah, they're better than me. Ah, , that bums me out. I need to work harder. And it was just like constantly like, you know, wearing yourself out, comparing yourself to other things. And, um, yeah, it's like, it's never good. I, I don't think it's good to like have all of your self-esteem wrapped into like one thing that you do think that, 

[00:48:52] zach: yeah, I did that in high school, not even just with music, but with guitar playing specifically.

Like I got really into wood shedding. I would practice guitar for eight to 10 hours every day. Wow. That's crazy. Yeah. I could shred in high school. I mean, it's like lifting weights where like, it's 

[00:49:09] olivia: like a muscle memory thing. 

[00:49:11] zach: Yeah. And if you stop doing it, you're still like pretty strong. Like I can still solo and stuff, but not, and if I decided to get back into it, it would take fewer reps than it did the first time.

Or that it would for like most people, but like, but those, yeah, a lot of that muscles musculature is atrophied. Um, And Yeah, I, I was gonna go to Berkeley College of Music for guitar playing. Wow. And I, I did, I did like a camp there. Um, and I remember seeing a guy, I was supposed to go see Mc Thompson from Slipknot, but his plane got snowed out in Iowa and the guy that filled in for him was just a Berkeley alum, uh, who went on stage.

And he was just the most boring dude I've ever seen. Hmm. He's just talking about how he gets up at like four in the morning to practice for four hours, and then he does X, Y, and Z practices. And his whole life was just playing guitar fast. Hmm. And I was like, oh fuck, that's me if I continue down this trajectory.

[00:50:06] victor: Um, yeah. I can see not wanting that for yourself. I, I do have a lot of respect though for like the metal guitarist where they've like, it's evolved to the point where it's essentially very fast classical music with like some distortion on there, like fully has moved past metal roots into like, oh, you're just doing.

Yeah, 

[00:50:29] zach: but this particular guy that was filling in for Mac Thompson or Thomas Thompson, I think he, uh, like Slip Knot, they make like this specific kind of music that's full of like emotion and like story and stuff. Whether it's your cup of tea or not. This guy, I don't know what kind of like what was in his music other than playing fast.

Mm-hmm. , you know what I mean? Like, I, I, I kinda have this epiphany that's like, what is, like if music is your life, What is your music about? Do you have no life? Yeah. Other 

[00:50:59] olivia: than, well, it's like technical versus like creative and then, and, and it's like the same thing where like, I don't know, my dad is always like, find what you'll like to do and find a way to make money doing it.

But I kind of feel like if you. Like take a thing you love and then make it your like income. You know? You're kind of corrupting it. Yeah. And like make turning it into this thing that you're putting pressure on it and turning it into a thing that you're not doing. Just cuz you like to do it, you're doing it cuz you also have to do it, you know?

[00:51:31] zach: Yeah. I dated a tattoo artist once. Who, uh, was always staying up till three in the morning to finish stuff for work, and she was like, I used to like drawing . Yeah. Mm, 

[00:51:41] victor: mm-hmm. . I do always feel it. I, I, um, so I've, I've always liked artistic stuff and I think, like at my, at my core, at my, like heart of hearts at my impulse is to like write things very verbal.

Um, when I'm making music, it's very much about like writing new words and putting words. And, um, yeah, just, it's always like, it's, it's different ways to get at writing something. Mm-hmm. . Um, but so maybe that's why I have a hard time relating to somebody who it is purely about like, um, like technical precision and technical skill.

Because to me it's like, from my perspective, if you're not then taking that to try and create something new, it all feels. Um, it's impressive, but it would, it feel, it would feel empty to me to like accumulate all of that skill and not try and channel that into like, the creation of a new thing. And so it's like, I, I respect, but it, it's like hard for me to relate to somebody that, um, you know, gets very good at an instrument to play classical pieces or pieces They.

Very well, but not, um, but not write something themselves, you know? 

[00:52:56] zach: Yeah. Yeah. I think that's why I fell off the, the wood shedding wagon. Um, cuz I was gonna go to Berkeley for, uh, film scoring. Cause they're the only school in the world that has like a film scoring department. Um, And so when I like got jaded on, on that like particular path, well I've had an identity crisis basically since then, but, uh, I did, I, I figured it was between music school and film school cuz there were no film scoring programs.

And so I went to film school to see. If I was going to like reject the idea of being singularly focused on the neck of a guitar, then I was going to like do something that was multidisciplinary and collaborative, which is what's awesome about film cuz it's visual art, it's sound, it's acting, it's writing.

You need other people to do it. Um, that's 

[00:53:44] olivia: almost exactly how I ended up in film school too. It like, I was not the film kid. Yeah. It was like by accident that I 

[00:53:52] zach: like. Yeah. Cause you're, you're good at all that stuff too. Like, like, like I was just saying about creative people in general, they tend to be like, get curious about stuff and, and like, I'm gonna try my hand it X, Y, Z and so I'm like, right.

Yeah. You're you're very, you're very good at. Lots of those things, so, yeah. 

[00:54:08] olivia: Well, it was like I went to art school thinking I'm not sure what I'm gonna do because I, I am interested in all of these different disciplines and like, I thought maybe illustration, like I thought I was gonna be like drawing or doing design or whatever, but like the reason why I went into the film program was because it was so multidisciplinary and that you can collaborate.

All kinds of people from all kinds of departments, like, and, and that like if you like illustration, well, you can use that, you can use music, you can use. You know, whatever it is that you want to do can totally be incorporated into that medium. And it's, and I think it's just the coolest storytelling medium because you can be so specific and like fine tune details to, to elicit like a certain.

Feeling or response from your audience, and it's like you can use all of those different disciplines to do that. 

[00:55:09] zach: Thanks for listening to The Jung and the Restless. 

[00:55:12] olivia: You can follow us on social media at The Jung and the Restless Pod and submit your dreams for interpretation to the young and the restless.

Pod Gmail, 

[00:55:22] victor: and as we always say, time's fun. Fun when you're having 

[00:55:25] zach: flies

clocking. 

[00:55:39] olivia: Dream forever. Dream forever.

[00:56:24] victor: Do you have a dream that you'd like read on an episode, but don't want us to dive into the deep, dark, nooks and crannies of your psyche? We'll leave it in a review on Apple Podcasts and we'll read it without trying to penetrate your soul. With our keen gaze 

[00:56:40] zach: long, hard keen gaze

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